Stuart Pearce Opens Up On Brian Clough, England And Modern Football On Latest Jeff Stelling Show

Pearce Revisits Brian Clough’s Famous ‘Don’t Let The Team Down’ Mentality

One of the standout sections of the interview sees Pearce discussing the impact Brian Clough had on his career during their years together at Nottingham Forest.

Pearce explained how Clough’s standards around discipline and responsibility shaped his approach throughout football.

Speaking on the podcast, Pearce said:

“Brian Clough drummed that into me, the ‘don’t let the team down’ mentality.”

He also recalled the legendary manager refusing to speak to him for a week following an early-career red card at Leicester.

The former England international described Clough as eccentric, demanding and hugely influential, while sharing several stories from Forest’s glory years.

Full Transcript

The Jeff Stelling Show x Stuart Pearce

Jeff Stelling: Hello. Our guest today on the Jeff Stelling Show with OLBG is a man who, for nearly a quarter of a century, struck fear into the heart of opposing wingers from Wealdstone to Wembley, from the City Ground to the Boleyn Ground. 

And as a lover of the Stranglers, the Sex Pistols and the Clash, he probably still strikes fear into the heart of those whose playlists include the likes of Fleetwood Mac and the Eagles and Elton John. Like mine.

I'm with that legend who is Stuart Pearce. 

Hi Stuart, how are you doing?

Stuart Pearce: Brilliant Jeff, really good to be here.

Five red cards and Brian Clough's "don't let the team down" mentality

Jeff Stelling: Great to have you. I have to ask you straight away, how long do you think you would last on the pitch in this day and age?

Stuart Pearce: I always prided myself on being very cold and very calculating on a football pitch. I've got a reputation for being a tough tackler, but in a thousand matches in my career, including non-league, I've been sent off five times. 

Once it was for swearing at the referee because someone kicked Roy Keane, and one was being the last man in a challenge. So my reputation doesn't tell you the whole story. I always went up to a certain level and then tried not to get sent off.

But Brian Clough drummed that into me, the "don't let the team down" mentality.

Jeff Stelling: Was that anything to do with the Leicester red card?

Stuart Pearce: Leicester was actually two yellows. That was my first ever sending off, at Leicester away in the League Cup. The first challenge, I really should have been serving a term in Borstal for, if truth be known, Jeff. 

And then he said to me at half-time, "keep out of trouble," and I said, "all right, fine." I mistimed a challenge on 47 minutes that was worse than the first one. And the first one was bad, I must say.

Got sent off. He wouldn't speak to me for a week. Literally wouldn't speak to me for a week. And you learn quickly. That mentality of "if you let us down now, you'll let us down when it really matters." From that moment on, I got sent off four more times for minor-ish events.

Jeff Stelling: You were an angel compared to some, weren't you? Roy Keane had 13 red cards. Vinnie Jones 12. Mark Dennis, remember him?

Stuart Pearce: Yes, well and truly. To be fair, I used to talk to the referees as well, so I was pretty polite to them. And I almost got some tolerance from them as well.

Jeff Stelling: You got them on your side.

Stuart Pearce:  Yes, I got them on my side.

I remember David Ellery, who was a school teacher and had a real reputation for being a strict referee. 

I was booked already. We were playing Blackburn at the City Ground, and on about 18 minutes I fouled someone and I should have gone. He called me over and I was expecting to be sent off. 

He just looked at his watch and went, "we've got 10 minutes. Do you think you can keep out of trouble?" I said, "yeah, of course." As I walked off the pitch I went up to him and said, "thank you very much. You didn't have to do that, but I appreciate it." It's just that connection. I think that's lost a little bit, Jeff, with players and referees nowadays.

Matt Le Tissier feared me - and the art of intimidation

Jeff Stelling: Matt Le Tissier will still say that of all the players he played against, the one he feared the most was Stuart Pearce.

Stuart Pearce: It was a backhanded compliment. I always said I would never waste a booking on somebody I didn't have to. But certain individuals, you thought, hang on a minute, I've probably got one decent challenge here, so I've got to make it right. 

The likes of Pat Nevin and Matt Le Tissier, they were outstanding players. Of course they're a big problem. So listen, it's a compliment in its own way that I gave them some special treatment.

Jeff Stelling: Were you aware on occasions that somebody you'd be playing up against was fearful of you?

Stuart Pearce: Yeah. I would often, if I was challenging for a header, quite often shout extremely loudly. If I was going to jump for something, I'd just scream "Pearce coming through" or something of that nature. 

Quite often it's human nature to shrink a little bit if you've got your back to somebody who you think might challenge aggressively. So it was a means to an end. I didn't play up to it off the pitch in any way, shape or form, but on the pitch, if it served a purpose to make my life and the team's life easier, so be it.

Jeff Stelling: This may sound a tough question. Was there anybody in your playing career that you were wary of, that you were a bit fearful of?

Stuart Pearce: There's quite a few. You knew if you were going for a challenge with Vinnie Jones that there was going to be a full-blooded challenge coming both our ways. Mick Harford, you knew. Billy Whitehurst, I played against. There was a few dangerous characters. Ian Bowyer at Forest would stand his ground. 

I come from non-league, Jeff. I had 250 games in non-league before I started my journey. And I didn't have any reputation at all about being a tough tackling player. 

In fact, I got roughed up by wingers that had been around the game a long time. So you had to look after yourself. Then you arrive in the pro game and people all of a sudden think you're quite aggressive, and I'd point to where I'd come from and think, well, you've seen nothing.

Has the modern game lost something with the lack of physicality?

Jeff Stelling: I know a lot of attacking players will say the game is better because of the fact that you don't see the thunderous, full-blooded challenges that used to be. But do you think the game suffers at all because of the comparative lack of physicality?

Stuart Pearce: In some ways, yeah. You can go to any ground in the country, and if someone puts a good challenge in, everyone enjoys that. 

A good clean tackle, whether it's aggressive or whether it's not, is always revered. It's an art in the game. It's an art to make a challenge and not foul somebody. I never tried to foul anybody, I always tried to win the ball.

It's gone out of the game a little bit. It's protecting the strikers. But I think it might have gone slightly too far because I see good challenges get punished sometimes with red and yellow cards, where I deem, even in today's standards, that's a good challenge.

Jeff Stelling: As someone who played part of a game with a broken leg, what do you feel when you see the way players react to some challenges these days, the theatricality of it? 

I'm thinking of an incident recently when Calafiori screamed in agony in the Arsenal v West Ham game, and within seconds he was on his feet, nothing wrong with him. How would you view things like that?

Stuart Pearce: It saddens me. From a refereeing point of view, we've got to get stronger. We've got to empower the referees to say "look, this is unacceptable." Nobody sat on the terraces, or stood on the terraces, enjoys that. Even if it's your own team, you get frustrated by it.

We've got to get a little bit cuter at the refereeing level in exposing what is a free-kick and what isn't. Because at the moment, whoever falls on the floor gets the free-kick for safety. It's as though, well, I can't get it wrong if I give everything of that nature. 

And that's the way the game's gone a little bit. It frustrates the British public to an extent. But it is what it is, until we empower the referees and support them a little bit more they'll continually make decisions that are politically correct, if you like.

Jeff Stelling: It used to be seen as a sign of weakness if you stayed down.

Stuart Pearce: Yeah. My father wouldn't accept me staying down. My mentality was always never show the opposition you hurt. At the end of extra-time in any game, never roll your socks down. You're sending a message to the opposition that you're tired, so you wouldn't do that.

If I had a good shot on target and the goalkeeper made a save that was probably the best save I'd ever seen in world football, I would never congratulate him. I'd never pick a player up unless it was going to save me a booking. So I don’t see why you would.

All you're doing is building confidence of the opposition. Probably just a different generation. I was brought up in the guidance my father and my eldest brother gave me to playing football.

Cloughie walking to The Den.

Jeff Stelling: We were chatting before, and you were saying when Forest had gone to Millwall, Cloughie had a unique way of showing no sign of weakness.

Stuart Pearce: Yeah, exactly. Millwall in the old First Division, they'd just got promoted, and there was talk of crowd trouble at Millwall with the Old Den and that type of thing. We played them away from home one of the early fixtures of the season. We had pre-match at the hotel, got on the bus, drove to the ground, and all of a sudden the bus pulled over. We're not at the ground yet.

Cloughie stood up saying "come on, get off." So we all got off, all the players, and we walked the last mile to the Old Den. He's at the front of it with his walking stick and green top on, and we're all behind him following him to the ground. 

And it's like, well look, you don't scare us. We're in town today and we're coming to play you at a game of football. That was his unique style.

Why Rugby League does it better.

Jeff Stelling: I know you're a lover of rugby league and you go and watch Warrington Wolves. Do you ever think when you're watching them, why can't footballers be like this lot?

Stuart Pearce: I think they did used to be. It's just that the culture has changed a lot now. 

I was there on Sunday, my team got beaten by Hull KR. In all honesty, it's fantastic for me turning up. I want my team to win, but I want to see a great game of rugby and I want to see the best team win. We got beaten on the day, but there's no theatrics between the players in the main.

People pray together at the end of the game. Players from both teams always go around the perimeter or go to their own fans, have a picture with the young children there. It's just so refreshing, Jeff. 

I love going from a game of football on the Saturday to a game of rugby where the culture is so different, especially rugby league.

Jeff Stelling: You thought maybe you'd have preferred to play rugby league?

Stuart Pearce: No. I can rough up a winger, but I'll tell you what, it's a different game altogether running at some of these boys. They are a special breed. I've got so much respect for rugby league players.

Jeff Stelling: I've seen that sort of camaraderie in Gaelic football as well. The fans from each side sit together, the players mix. It's brilliant. A completely different world.

Starting at Wealdstone, £15 a week and the Brent Council electrician

Jeff Stelling: Let's talk about you and your career, Stu. First of all, you started off as a part-timer at Wealdstone. Promised me you won't mention Wealdstone seven, Hartlepool nil this season?

Stuart Pearce: Well, we have breached that already this afternoon, haven't we? Yeah, one of the bigger results this season for the Stones. Hopefully a trophy win will be bigger.

Jeff Stelling: Look, we've got a picture of you here at Wealdstone. How old would you be then?

Stuart Pearce: 17. I left school, I had nowhere to play football. 

I was at QPR for six months as a 13-year-old and got released. Had nowhere to go. We had a really good school team, champions in London on three occasions over the six years. Five of us went to Wealdstone to train, youth team and reserves the first year.

At the end of the first year, I broke into the first team, not on ability but on the fact that the senior players couldn't take time off work. 

So many fixtures cancelled, you know what it's like in the National League or the Alliance as it was then, we were playing three, four games a week. So the senior players said "I'm not taking any more time off work." 

Kids like me got thrown in and fortunately for me I stayed in the team for the next four and a half, five years.

Jeff Stelling: 15 quid a week, that's what I read?

Stuart Pearce: 15 pounds a week I was on. Not when I first broke into the team, I had no contract then. But once I got in the team, 15 pounds a week, three pound win bonus, £1.50 draw bonus. Not big money in those days, but it was the first time someone ever paid me to play football. I was really excited by it.

Jeff Stelling: You were earning more because you were an electrician?

Stuart Pearce: I earned more being a spark than I was from football. I was fortunate enough that Bobby Gould came to see me when I was 21 years old playing for Wealdstone. 

Someone had mentioned my name in a team meeting on the Monday morning. He came on the Tuesday and looked at me play at Yeovil. On the Wednesday he agreed a £25,000 transfer fee with Wealdstone for me to change. 

On the Friday I went in and said goodbye to, I was working for Brent Council, I'd just qualified six weeks earlier as an electrician. Said goodbye to everyone I worked with, played my last game the next day against Basildon in the FA Cup third qualifying round, which I didn't actually see the significance of that game until I was cup-tied in January against Manchester City playing for Coventry because I played against Basildon. 

I was earning £220 as an electrician and 60 quid at that time as a footballer. £280. And Goldie offered me a wage cut of £30. So I was on £250 playing in the top division against Ian Rush and Kenny Dalglish and the like. I took a wage cut to end up living away from home. Different times.

Yak Jensen: the Russian goalkeeper for Dynamo Kingsbury Kiev.

Jeff Stelling: Just before we move on to Coventry. While you were at Wealdstone, you were just telling us before we started to record this, you were playing as a goalkeeper in Sunday league as well.

Stuart Pearce: Yeah, as a goalkeeper. All my mates from northwest London, I used to go down the pub when I got back from Wealdstone games, go down the pub and meet them. School friends from growing up, primary and secondary school. 

There was a big clutch of us in the pub and we used to play in a team called Dynamo Kingsbury Kiev. We billed ourselves as a pseudo-Russian team when there was a bit of mystique about the Russian Empire in this sort of late '70s, early '80s.

They were all having a good fun on a Sunday morning playing. I wanted to play. So we hashed up the idea that I would play under an assumed name as a Russian goalkeeper called Yak Jensen. I used to play as Yak. Used to wear an orange and black kit. Black shorts down to my knees with CCCP across both kneecaps. I was a Russian goalie basically in the West Fulham District.

I played about two and a half years. One year, I think it was the '81/'82 season, I was top scorer with eight. Our centre-forward was a little bit pissed off because he only got seven that year. He denies that's the case, but I remember it. 

I used to go up for all corners, all free-kicks, no matter what time of the game it was. I used to take every free-kick. It was just good fun on a Sunday morning being with your mates.

Why I still go back to Wealdstone.

Jeff Stelling: I love the fact you still go back to Wealdstone, still fly the Wealdstone flag.

Stuart Pearce: Yeah, I'm fortunate. I do a bit of ambassador work for the non-league set-up with a company called Pitching In and they're really good to be fair. They're putting funds into the non-league system. 

Sometimes when that's been your lifeline to get started in football like I have, it's wrong to turn your back on that and forget where you've come from. You hear stories about people who forget where they've come from, but I always think I've had a very even keel on where I've come from. 

I really enjoy going back to Wealdstone when I can. Obviously I work it around my media commitments, but it's nice to go back and see the next generation of youngsters as well.

Jeff Stelling: Do you think the fact that you did come from a background like that, playing as a part-timer at Wealdstone, earning the bulk of your money elsewhere, has helped you throughout your life?

Stuart Pearce: 100%, Jeff. Without a doubt. It's grounded me from the offset. I've still got the same group of friends that I had when I was at primary school as a nine, 10-year-old. So I've kept that. I lead a normal life. 

That's where I see myself fortunate that I've not been a player in this era in many ways. I think they lose a little bit of reality check about where they are. They're courted in academies and that type of thing. I've not had that.

I had to work for a living. I was working prior to being an electrician. I worked in a radio and TV warehouse lifting boxes for a year before I got my electrical apprenticeship. So it's grounded me brilliantly, and that's stuck with me wherever I've gone and whatever I've done.

Coventry, John Sillett's prediction and a wage cut to the top flight.

Jeff Stelling: When you got to Coventry, how did the established first team treat you? You've come from non-league football, you've been a part-timer. Did they welcome you in straight away?

Stuart Pearce: There was a real different vibe in the dressing room in that regard. I turned up, Trevor Peake used to play for Nuneaton and went to Lincoln then came on to us, who'd become a good friend of mine. 

Certain players come with different journeys. Bob Latchford and Kenny Hibbitt, two iconic players from the late '60s and '70s, were in the dressing room. Sam Allardyce was in the dressing room as well at the time. A real mixed bag of players. 

We also had a clutch of players, Graham Withey came from Bath City. A real clutch of players who came from differing journeys to arrive there. We had some players come from the non-league set-up as well. I think Bobby Gould was chipping back on the money. To be honest with you, it was pretty good.

I was lucky that I played one game for the reserve team away at Blackpool. After that game, John Sillett, the manager of the reserves, told somebody (a friend of a friend) after that one game that I'd play for England. Which is unbelievable when you think about it. One reserve game from a non-league player.

Within two weeks I was in the first team at Coventry playing against QPR, the team I supported and got released from. Terry Venables was the manager. Played well that day and stayed in the team. That was the journey I went on.

Brian Clough: pantomime in the referee's room with Vinnie Jones.

Jeff Stelling: You played under some great managers as well, haven't you? Over the years, obviously we mentioned Bobby Gould, you mentioned Terry Venables. You played for England under Hoddle, Keegan and Bobby Robson. And of course Cloughie.

Stuart Pearce: Yeah.

Jeff Stelling: I know Cloughie was different to the rest of them. Was he the best?

Stuart Pearce: I would have to say yes, because I worked for him from the age of 23 till I was 31. So really informative years. 

He kept you really grounded. He added to my upbringing about being really grounded and respectful, and team ethic was massive for him. He's a massive influence on me, no doubt. 

Seven of the eight years I worked for him, I was his captain as well. So for Brian Clough to want you to join him at Nottingham Forest was incredible. And for him to see something in me that said "would you captain this team?"

Jeff Stelling: I can look back at the days when he was the ex-Hartlepool manager and Peter Taylor was alongside him in those days. Was he as eccentric as people billed him to be?

Stuart Pearce: Yes. Every day was slightly different. Some days he was a predictable eccentric. If we went to Wembley and played in a cup final, you knew the following day we'd be in training and he'd run you. If we got beaten on a Saturday, he might well turn around and say "I'll see you next Friday." So you never knew what was coming.

Dropping us off on the coach at Millwall. We've pulled the coach over on the M1, he's got off with a tray of sandwiches to a lorry driver who's got his head under the bonnet trying to fix his lorry, offers him a salmon sandwich, gets back on the coach and off he goes, and the driver's sat there thinking, "was that Brian Clough just offered me a sandwich?" Every day was slightly different, but it was brilliant.

I remember there was a time when the captain and the manager had to go into the referee's room pre-game at two o'clock. We were playing away at Sheffield United, Bramall Lane. And it was Vinnie Jones, Dave Bassett, me and Cloughie with four officials in a room that was a fraction of the size of this. It was like pantomime in there. 

Vinnie walked in and said to Cloughie, "you're not going to talk your normal s***, are you, Cloughie?" He said, "what did he just say?" Oh, it was absolutely ridiculous. But just brilliant all the same.

Jeff Stelling: I'd have loved to have seen how Cloughie would have got on with Evangelos Marinakis at Forest.

Stuart Pearce: That would have been interesting. He ran it from top to bottom for us, no doubt. To be fair, he done a brilliant job. An amazing job.

Jeff's Clough story: the cub reporter and the radio auction.

Jeff Stelling: I'll tell you, when I was a cub reporter in the northeast, I worked for a radio station called Radio Tees. 

One day the management had this great idea, an unusual idea at the time, that they'd run a radio auction. I was responsible for getting football memorabilia and such like from all the top division clubs as they were then. 

So I wrote to every single top flight club. We were based in Middlesbrough, so I got lots of Middlesbrough stuff back, Middlesbrough were a top flight club then. Nothing from any other football club in the country.

And then one day the phone in my office went, and the newsroom said, "Jeff, we've got a Mr Clough for you." It was Brian himself. And he literally just said, and I won't try and do the accent, "look, young man, got your letter. What do you want?" He said, "would you like some signed shirts, some signed balls?" That would be fantastic. And sure enough they arrived. He was the only person, apart from my local club, who got in touch.

You know, I know he was an enigma in some ways, but all my dealings with him, limited dealings with him, were really positive. 

Stuart Pearce: You could catch him on a good day or catch him on a bad day. It was that, that was him.

But his record. When I first walked into Nottingham Forest and looked around the walls at what he'd achieved, five years earlier, they'd won the Champions League, the European Cup as it was then. Just incredible how he's shaped that football club. 

When I go back now, Jeff, you walk in there and you look around and you think, he's responsible for all the history at this football club, whether it be the era of player I had or prior to that when they had real success at the club. Just incredible.

Ruud Gullit, Newcastle and a tough lesson in being dropped.

Jeff Stelling: I mentioned all those managers, and we've touch on a few during the course of it. There was one who I suspect you didn't get on with. I know you loved him as a player, but you were at Newcastle and Ruud Gullit was there, weren't you?

Stuart Pearce: Yeah, that was an interesting one. Ruud came in. Kenny packed in after the first day of the season. Kenny signed me. 

So Ruud sat all the experienced players down and said "I'm going to need you" and so on, which was fine, the right thing to do as a manager. I look back with my manager's head on. 

After 12 games I think I ended up sort of, I came home one day, we'd played away at Liverpool, and I said to my then wife, "I don't think I'll play again for this club." She said, "what makes you say that?" I said, "just got a feeling." And I never did, from December right through to the following season when I left.

The players used to say to me, basically Ruud said to me, "look, you're playing the reserves or don't play at all, I'll leave it with you." So I said, "no, I'd rather play in the reserves and help the kids." I was 37, the kids' nearest one to me was 21. It was really good. It was a great learning for me. 

I'd never not been picked in any football team I'd ever been involved in from the time I broke into Wealdstone's team. Never been dropped. So it really taught me a great deal when I went into management about what it's like not to play every Saturday, or be considered to play every Saturday.

In training, Ruud used to join in, and Shearer and the rest of them were leaving tackles between the two of us because they knew I wanted to get some frustration out. We had some juicy tackles between myself and Ruud. To be fair to him, he never moaned once. I remember putting him over my shoulder once, but he just got up and played on. He's tough, tough enough.

Jeff Stelling: I love the way you take the positives out of everything.

Stuart Pearce: You have to, really. It was a big one for me. I went and joined the youngsters, Tommy Craig was the manager. I used to train and used to play in the reserves, and we used to talk to these kids and these kids said "oh, Ruud doesn't even know my name, doesn't even come and watch the reserves, doesn't know my name." 

It never struck me before because I'd never been in the reserves as a senior player, apart from recovering from injury. The mentality is different.I thought these kids have got to be loved. They've got to know there's a pathway and a career. From not just the players themselves, but the coaches at the academy have got to know what we're doing here is going to benefit the first team, and the first team manager has got to take a real interest. 

So when I joined Forest as a manager, the first thing I did was go to the academy. How can I help you? What can I do for you? I'd finish my training session, I'd go and watch the kids play, get to the reserve game.

Moyesy was brilliant for it. Watched every reserve game he could get to. He watched everyone. So none of the players playing in the reserves could say "you've not watched me," because he has. And every manager should do that. 

Jeff Stelling: But do they in the Premier League? Managers go and watch the reserves or the kids play? 

Stuart Pearce: Well, not many do.

I went into the FA to work as Under-21 manager. I went to every tournament and watched every age group below the one I was working for that I possibly could. Got the opportunity to manage England (the senior team when Fabio left). 

On a Tuesday night, or a Wednesday night, I don't know which, we're playing Holland at Wembley. I got in my car and went from the Grove and drove round to Orient's ground to watch England Under-17s. Walk in the dressing room, they know the England manager tomorrow night is in, watching them at Under-17 level. That's what you should do.

Jeff Stelling: What a lift.

Stuart Pearce: There's no excuse. But I've seen it many times where they don't, but they should. It should be the norm.

Italia 90: two hours in silence with the Germans.

Jeff Stelling: We mentioned the positives you take from things that some people might perceive as a negative. Tell me whether there were any positives from Italia 90 and the penalty against Germany.

Stuart Pearce: I'll tell you one. We came off the pitch. I was picked to do a drugs test. Two players from each team were picked to do a drugs test after every game. Bizarrely, Gazza, who'd been picked on random six previous times, wasn't picked. No, I'm joking there. Me and Shilts were the two England players.

You go into a room, you've got to give a urine sample before you leave the room. We're losing seven pounds of sweat per game. We walk in there. Shilts had been fuelling and drinking during the game, being a goalkeeper, he hadn't lost the sweat that I did. He gave a quick urine sample and left. 

I sat in a room with two German players. Three of us sat in a room. They never said a word for the best part of two hours. So nor did I. We just sat there in total silence. They'd just won the World Cup semi-final, four days' time, they're about to win the final. I'd missed a penalty and contributed to England going home at semi-final stage.

That taught me a valuable lesson. I didn't realise it that day, but when I look back, the humility that they showed in success was incredible. And I took that with me. So when I scored a penalty six years later for England against Spain. We scored, I scored my penalty, everyone was excited, Seaman had made a save and that put us through to the semi-finals, everyone celebrated with Dave, I didn't. 

I went straight to the Spanish player, and subsequently the other Spanish players that had been beaten that day, because of my experience against the Germans.

I think in every eventuality, there is a positive to be drawn from it. I try to take that with me in my life now. You have to get yourself to a crossroads where it's a win-win. I see so many people go to a crossroads in life and they've got to make a decision and it's a lose-lose. You've got to be more positive than that.

Euro 96 vs Spain: full circle from Brent electrician to Wembley hero.

Jeff Stelling: You were pleased when you scored the penalty, though, weren't you?

Stuart Pearce: Reasonably pleased that day. It made a nice change. That was some day as well because I'd been around the block. I was 33, 34 years old. I'd come full circle, if you like. I'd worked in Brent where Wembley is, as an electrician. I used to work at the stadium, and now I'm on the pitch at the stadium representing my country.

I think the fans, that summer of football was incredible in England as well. The fans in the stadium that day were just incredible. It was an amazing summer.

Jeff Stelling: Everybody remembers you scoring that penalty against Spain, and the subsequent one again, just as much, if not more, than the one in Italia 90 because of the fact that you'd stepped up, you'd shown the bottle, you'd shown the character. Everybody loved that moment.

Stuart Pearce: All of those moments are part of your journey. Like in 1990, because we were fairly ill-prepared as a penalty-taking team, that taught me a lesson as well to make sure that the generation of England players that were under my care were better prepared when they stood out for England and took the penalty.

Why every England under-21 took a penalty every training session.

Stuart Pearce: After every training session, and I mean every training session, two years away from a major tournament, every player took a penalty. Every player's penalty was recorded on film and that was fed back to the players. 

That's why I know Joe Hart's save ratio is 17%. He's faced 350 penalties in total, either in game situations or in my care. Same with James Milner, his scoring ratio is 83%, because we've done all the analysis on it.

That won't affect me, I'll never take a penalty again. But those youngsters that came through that system should be, when they step out maybe this summer, they should have gone through that process. And I know they did with Gareth.

Jeff Stelling: So what did you do at Italia 90 then? Had you practised penalties?

Stuart Pearce: Yeah, practised, but it was ad hoc. No one knew until we got to the penalty situation. And when Bobby says, "you know, Gary Lineker's going to take a penalty, and then it's, do you fancy one? Do you fancy one? Do you fancy one?" That's not an exact science. For me, it never was.

So when the Under-21s ended up getting to a major penalty shootout, I walked on the pitch with a list of stats in my pocket. I said, "you're taking one, two, three, four, five. You're taking six, seven, eight, nine, ten. You're taking eleven." 

And statistically they're taking it in an order that's preferential, because we'd done the study of world penalty shootouts. The most important penalty is the first one, the second most important is the fourth one. So our best was one, our second best was two, Joe Hart took the third penalty because we'd done the practice and statistics-wise, he's in the top five penalty takers.

Unless you do that, you end up having people walking up to take a penalty like Gareth, like Ince, like Batty, that are not penalty takers, like Chris Waddle, if you like. I was a penalty taker, but why would you put players up there that have never taken a penalty before in their life? You have to do the homework.

Jeff Stelling: We've all seen it happen as well, where your top scorer, maybe your penalty specialist, he wants to take the fifth one because he wants to score what he thinks is going to seal the game. 

Stuart Pearce: But quite often there is no fifth one. It's one and four that are the crucial ones.

The 1990 media coverage and Gareth's masterstroke.

Jeff Stelling: It's interesting comparing what happened in 1990 with the current day. 

At the last Euros, within the England squad (and Gareth brilliantly rebuilt the relationship with the media and the players), there was still some resentment from amongst the squad about some of the media coverage. But the coverage the 1990 squad got was horrific. Absolutely horrible. Were the players aware of how much vitriol there was in the media towards them?

Stuart Pearce: Without a doubt they were. It was a real hostile scenario. Add to that the fact that the media used to travel with the team as well when I first got in the squad. 

We used to be sitting on an aeroplane on a tarmac in Eastern Europe waiting for the media to type up their reports an hour later to come and join us on the aeroplane. We're thinking, what are we waiting for? We want to go home, we've been away from home, we're prepping for the weekend. All of those things came into the mix.

Gareth, it was a masterstroke by Gareth and the FA before 2018, at St George's Park. He made all 23 players available in the gym. The media had free access to all the players. It was a masterstroke and it broke a lot of barriers down. 

I've been fortunate, I've been to World Cups as a player, as a coach. I've done it for TV. I've done it for radio. I've been on the pitch, you name it, I've done the whole spectrum. The support from the media to the team, I think, is really good now, as well as vice versa.

Gareth Southgate, my "fellow Sex Pistol" at Finsbury Park

Jeff Stelling: Here he is, we've got a picture of the two of you together, Gareth, your fellow Sex Pistol.

Stuart Pearce: Yeah, well, I'm not sure he's a fellow Sex Pistols fan. We got on famously from the moment he got in the squad. He had an old head on his shoulders, no doubt about that. I'm a few years older than Gareth. 

But we got on brilliantly in the squad, both very professional, meant a lot to us in a culture where the lads used to like going out and having a drink. I never did. And Gareth never did. We got on really well and always have done.

We won the penalty shootout against Spain on the Saturday. We got the Sunday off and most people could go home. Gazza and Dave Seaman went fishing. You can do what you want. 

I get the music papers, the Sounds, NME, Sex Pistols are playing at Finsbury Park. And I'm thinking, brilliant, I need to be there, Sunday. So arguably the best weekend of my life here. I've scored for England on Saturday against Spain. I went to Terry Venables Saturday night and said, "is it all right if I go to a concert tomorrow, if we've got a free day?" He says, "yeah." I didn't tell him who was on stage, I thought I'll keep that from him just in case. He said, "just take a couple of staff members with you."

So I said to Gareth, "you going home?" He said, "no." I said, "oh, I'm going to a gig tomorrow. You fancy it?" He said, "yeah, all right." So he came. It's his first gig he'd ever been to. And it was the Sex Pistols, Iggy Pop, Skunk Anansie, Stiff Little Fingers on stage. Brilliant lineup in my world. I don't know what Gareth thought of it. We went backstage and met the Pistols before. They convinced him to wear a Pistols t-shirt as well. Just a brilliant weekend in my world.

Jeff Stelling: Did he like it? Did it convert him?

Stuart Pearce: I think he suffered it. He's never been to the Sex Pistols again, I know that for a fact. And I don't think he's been anywhere close to seeing anything that might be punk-orientated.

Bowie, Bill Grundy and the night punk landed.

Jeff Stelling: Of course famously, you've seen the Stranglers more than 300 times now. You grew up loving punk, didn't you? That was your bag. I was just looking at music around the same time and I'm thinking Queen, Yellow, 10cc, Rod Stewart. Were you never tempted to dabble there as well, or did you have a broad spectrum of loves?

Stuart Pearce: It starts with an older brother. The nearest brother to me is 10 years older and his music collection was Bowie, the Who, Alex Harvey, people of that ilk. I used to listen to some of his stuff, Cockney Rebel, stuff like that. But I got into Bowie. Bowie was my first love and he was the first love of a lot of people that went into the punk scene as well. Bowie was brilliant.

Then all of a sudden I was sat at home, Jeff, in a lovely living room (well, not as lovely as this living room, your living room here). I'm watching the Bill Grundy interview, Today programme, whatever it was called. 

Six o'clock comes on and Bill Grundy comes on and he's got the Sex Pistols with Siouxsie Sioux in the studio and they're swearing. I'm 14 years old. I've never heard anybody on television swear before and it was brilliant. 

You know that rebel in you when you're 14 years old. I'm watching Bill Grundy goading the Sex Pistols. I'm thinking this is just brilliant. They're dropping the F-bomb and calling him a dirty rotter and God knows what. It was just brilliant.

It was probably slightly before then, but just then that had massive impact, on not just kids like me. The London scene as well was really good. I used to go to gigs in London. It was right on the doorstep. 

I loved the music, the edge to it, the excitement. It was something new. You could visibly see punk rockers by what they wore and stuff like that. It was just great.

Kenny Hibbitt's wisdom and bringing my own compilation tapes.

Jeff Stelling: Did you ever get to play your music in the dressing rooms then?

Stuart Pearce: I used to. When it first came in the dressing room, I never used to go out and warm up. I used to warm up in the dressing room with a really vigorous warm-up, but never went out on the pitch. 

That all came from Kenny Hibbitt. Kenny was in the dressing room at Coventry. We all used to go out. Kenny used to not go out. I'm looking in. I built up the courage. I said, "Ken, can I ask you a question, please?" He said, "yeah." I said, "why don't you go and warm up before the game?" 

He gave me a brilliant answer, Jeff. He looked at his watch and went, "I get paid for an hour and a half. I ain't doing any more." And I thought, wow, if it's good enough for him.

By the time I got to Forest, in that period, I used to stay in the dressing room. So when the music thing came in, a) I was the captain by that stage, and b) I stayed in for the whole duration. It made sense for me to bring a compilation tape that was my choice. So we used to have a mixed bag of punk rock, really.

Jeff Stelling: Did Cloughie ever have anything to say about that?

Stuart Pearce: No, he tolerated it, to be fair. He sat in the dressing room and tolerated it. He weren't too bad. 

It was only me and him in the dressing room because he never went out. The coaches were outside. Chairman would come in on the odd occasion to say good luck. But it was just me and him, me going through this vigorous warm-up routine and him just killing time.

Take That, Iron Maiden, Bon Jovi at MSG - the gig diary.

Jeff Stelling: We discuss music on talkSPORT from time to time, obviously. My co-host on Mondays and Tuesdays, Ally McCoist, he's an AC/DC man, isn't he?

Stuart Pearce: No, he likes the punk scene. 

Jeff Stelling: Yeah does what he does. But if you asked him, if you forced to name his favourite, he’d say AC/DC. Would tehey be on your playlist anywhere? 

Stuart Pearce: Not overly. They drop into the heavy rock scene a little bit. I did go and see Iron Maiden a couple of summers ago, which was really good at the London Stadium. I do go and see varying different things, different bands.

Over the next couple of weeks I've got the 100 Club to see Spear of Destiny, which you won't know. And Friday after that, Take That at Southampton. Carol loves them. So we'll go and watch them. I do see a mixed bag. 

At the World Cup we've got penciled in an all-day festival that the Human League are involved in. Bon Jovi are playing Madison Square Garden three days before the final, so that might be one. And Joe Jackson, I don't know if you know him, early '80s, 

Jeff Stelling:  Different for Girls, things like that? 

Stuart Pearce: You've got it. He's playing a theatre in New York as well. You've got to be on top of these things. There's a clutch of us at talkSPORT who quite enjoy the music scene as well.

Jeff Stelling: Look, I've got two tickets for a Taylor Swift concert for you. Would you go?

Stuart Pearce: I’ve not heard of her! I don't know, Jeff, she's gone over my head. I don't know. The answer is no. She would be lost on me, to be fair.

The modern players I love: Bernardo, Henderson, Milner, Guéhi

Jeff Stelling: Look, let's talk about football again. Who are the players that you really like in the modern game? I know it's a broad question.

Stuart Pearce: If I had to pick one, Bernardo Silva, I think he's magnificent. He runs more than any player in a Manchester City shirt or probably the opposition shirt on a Saturday. Pep never brings him off. He plays him every game when he rotates his team. Bernardo still playing. 

He does everything right that I think a footballer should. What I mean by that is, he'll receive the ball and you think well, he's a diminutive midfield player, so he's just passing. He'll run at someone. It almost looks like Eddie Gray for an older generation. He puts the arms out and runs at defenders, at full-backs. 

And then if people double up on him, he'll put his foot on the ball and roll it to a teammate with the perfect weight and the perfect timing to help one of the team. He just does everything correctly, in my opinion, that a modern-day footballer should do.

I'd throw out there as well James Milner and Henderson, that I had the privilege of working with at Under-21 level. What a pair of professionals these two boys have turned out to be. Incredible leadership skills. 

Henderson especially has been magnificent over the duration, and the tough start that he had when he arrived at Liverpool. They didn't fancy him. He had to come through that adversity to win people over.

There's certain people that you look at and think, yeah, I like you. I like Marc Guehi. No-nonsense defender, reads the game really well. There's certain individuals there that something resonates inside you and you think, yeah, I like the way you conduct yourself as well as what you are as a footballer.

Jordan Henderson and the World Cup squad question.

Jeff Stelling: There's been a lot of speculation about whether Jordan Henderson goes to the World Cup. If you're Thomas Tuchel, do you take him?

Stuart Pearce: Depends on his footballing ability. I don't think at the moment Jordan would get in the team. But what I would say is it's no surprise Brentford have done so well this year with having him around the dressing room. 

If you think he's got a worth to the squad, whether he wants to come as one of the staff members, if you like, or whether you think he's good enough to come on and influence games a certain amount of times, it's worth their weight in gold this day and age when there's a little bit of selfishness in the game. He gives himself to the group.

Filling Stuart's boots at left back: O'Reilly, Lewis-Skelly and Lewis Hall.

Jeff Stelling: Let's stick with the England squad for a minute or two. Who do you think will fill your role? Who's going to be left back?

Stuart Pearce: I think at this moment in time, O'Reilly. I think Nico O'Reilly, he can supplement midfield, he gets forward really well, he can score you a goal. He's had a brilliant season. He's playing at the top end of one of the top sides in the world. So everything looks good. 

I think probably Lewis Hall's lost a little bit of shine, maybe Luke Shaw's lost a little bit of shine at the moment. And the people that are in that position, Livramento, I don't think they're hitting the straps at the moment. But I think O'Reilly is one of the players when you look at the team, he is on form.

Jeff Stelling: Lewis-Skelly is in the side now, but he lost his Arsenal place at the wrong time, didn't he? Just the wrong time really from his point of view.

England's strengths, weaknesses and the central defender question.

Jeff Stelling: Where do you see our strengths and weaknesses?

Stuart Pearce: Strengths are at the front end of the team and in wide areas. Whoever plays in wide areas, and it's very transferable who we've got in those wide areas, Rashford or Gordon or Madueke or Saka or Bowen. There's a real punch out there. 

You need in those wide areas, and I think Tuchel's worked this out, you need wingers as such, type players, to supplement Harry Kane. So I think he's worked that out.

The number 10 role as well, Morgan Rogers has been brilliant. Bellingham's an outstanding player. I haven't even mentioned Foden and Palmer. I think the manager's worked out that Foden and Palmer have to play as a number 10, not wide, because I don't think it helps Harry Kane. That's my personal opinion.

The centre of our midfield, Anderson's on brilliant form at the moment. Declan Rice is on brilliant form. There's two out of the three, and you add to that either Bellingham or Rogers. That's a really impressive three in my world. 

Jeff Stelling: And they can play together, you think? Rice and Anderson?

Stuart Pearce: 100%. If you're playing against the top teams in the world, Declan sits back and plays alongside Anderson. You're playing the lesser teams, he squeezes up and initiates the press with Harry Kane from the front with the number 10. I think that's a great trade-off.

Defensively, the goalkeeper's got vast experience now. You just hope we're good enough. That's the question mark. Are we going to be good enough to keep us to a nil when those games are really tight?

Jeff Stelling: Do you feel we are short in particular central defenders? You mentioned Marc Guehi, who's been terrific since he went to Manchester City. But are we struggling for a partner?

Stuart Pearce: John Stones, once again for me, who’d be the natural one to play alongside him, but he's not had the football of late. Konsa's been pretty good as well. So he looks the natural next one in line. Harry Maguire, he's never let England down in my eyes. But you mix and match a little bit there. So you just hope that's going to be strong enough.

We're also a question mark on Reece James, whether he's fit. I think Thomas thinks he's the best right-back we have. So we just hope he's fit and available.

Jeff Stelling: Would you agree he's the best right-back?

Stuart Pearce: In the main, I would say. Livramento's done quite well. Spence is a decent defender. Good defender in some ways. But I'd say definitely that he's probably the number one at present.

How many world-class players does this England team have?

Jeff Stelling: When you look at the England squad we've got some fantastic talents, and people have got different ways of defining world class or otherwise, but in your opinion, how many world-class players will England have in their first-choice 11?

Stuart Pearce: I would say Declan can be. Harry Kane, definitely. On his day Bellingham. On his day Rashford, potentially. But they've got to be flat out on their day. It depends where your ceiling for world class is. 

If we're talking about the Messis, Ronaldos, Pelés of this world, they're world class that deliver and win tournaments on their own. We're still waiting for somebody to take the team and the performance by the scruff of the neck and get us over the line, like Gascoigne nearly did for England back in my era.

Why can't England get over the line?

Jeff Stelling: You've been there and done it. As an outsider, as a presenter, I look at the England squad and they've got a fantastic squad. As i thought at the Euros, and as I thought at other championships, why is it so difficult for us to get over the line?

Stuart Pearce: I think we've probably not focused on penalty shootouts over the years. I cite my experience of losing two out of three penalty shootouts at semi-final stage. So that might have kept us away from silverware. Players not hitting form at the right time.

I was on the coaching staff when I went to the 2010 World Cup, and a lot of your hopes and dreams were on Wayne Rooney, who had a really rotten World Cup, and we saw it in training. He probably needed leaving out, to be honest. 

But Fabio was forever picking him and putting him in the team in the hope that if England are going to be successful, Wayne's got to hit it off. So if you leave him out, your chances of progressing, but for the sake of the team, as bizarre as it sounds, he probably needed dropping. I saw it firsthand. He just lost form totally that summer.

You need some of your key players to stay clear of fitness as well, make sure they're fully fit and firing. So you've got your fingers crossed on some of these boys that they hit it off in the summer. 

Also as well, the draw plays a big part in it. Sometimes you think well, we can beat anyone in front of us. But the timing of when you play these teams, if you're going to take on a big hit, leave them to the final.

Jeff Stelling: So do you think we'll win it?

Stuart Pearce: I think we'll take some knocking over. If I put my hand on my heart, I'd probably say that the French and the Spaniards are probably ahead of us. So we're relying on maybe one or two of those cutting each other's throats and then us playing one of them in the final, then you never know.

A heart rate of 155, friends, and putting things in perspective at 50.

Jeff Stelling: If we reflect on your life, Stuart, there have been some massive highs, some terrible lows as well, on and off the pitch. The flight back from the States when you'd been watching Warrington Wolves - what was the story there? You were very ill, weren't you?

Stuart Pearce: Well, I had a resting heart rate of 155, which was quite lively. I don't think I've ever got up to that, even in my playing days. Just a virus that took me off. You never know.

I always go back to what a friend of mine told me once when I turned 50. He said, "it don't matter anymore. You've gone past the bullseye, so it don't matter." I always sort of fall back to that and it makes me laugh every time I feel a bit ill. You think, well, I'm over 50 now. I've had a brilliant life.

I realised probably subsequently after that, Jeff, that it doesn’t half pay when you go through situations of adversity, to have good people around you. It showed me then that I've got a brilliant network of friends around me, and footballing friends as well beyond that, which was incredible.

Losing his son and finding meaning in helping others.

Jeff Stelling: I don't like to raise this, but I will, nevertheless, and tell me if you don't want to talk about it. One of those lows was recent as well - the death of your son at a very young age.

Stuart Pearce: Yeah, that was very sad for the family. Horrific really, and worse probably for my ex-wife and his sister. 

But listen, the good thing is, and I don't overly want to talk about it, the good thing is that after that I went to dinners and people would come up to me and say "look, I lost my son, I lost my dad, I lost this, I lost that, and what you've gone through as well." They'd had that connection with me.

I thought to myself at the time, if anything comes good out of this, it's the fact that I can help other people in losses that they might go through. 

So once again you always try and draw that positive from it. If people can come up to me and look at me and say "look, this has happened to him, it's happened to me recently, so I'm going to go through it." And there are other people out there. I can talk to them about their friends network, lean on them, pick the phone up, talk to people. All well and good.

Jeff Stelling: I lost my sister at a very early age, and you think you'll never, ever recover. And don’t get me wrong, it stays with you. But somehow you survive. Maybe your past experiences throughout life have helped you survive.

The applause at three minutes, and a scoreboard at the City Ground.

Jeff Stelling: I just want to show one last picture, because this is after you'd been ill. And I just think, for a kid who started out as a 17-year-old at Wealdstone, to see this at Premier League grounds, "get well Stuart" - it's amazing.

Stuart Pearce: To be fair, I was sat in a hospital bed in Canada and I managed to get the game. I was supposed to be covering that game commentating on it for talkSPORT. 

We were watching the game and all of a sudden there was this massive applause broke out at three minutes. I'm sat there looking at it. I turned around to Carol and I said "I think one of the Forest players has died." And it flashed up to the scoreboard, and there was a picture of me on the scoreboard. 

I said to her, "you better go and get the doctor, get me a second opinion. Because at the moment it don't look good at the City Ground."

But listen, it was so, so humbling, I've got to say. It was amazing. The family at Nottingham Forest have been brilliant. There were two ex-clubs of mine that happened to be playing on the same day that day. 

You realise at times like that for me how much I've affected people over my career, and how much maybe I can help them as well going forward if they have bereavements of any description, or any illnesses like I did. It was incredibly humbling, I've got to say.

Do you miss the day-to-day?

Jeff Stelling: Do you miss the day-to-day involvement? Obviously, lots of media work essentially.

Stuart Pearce: I'm always at the ground, so I really love that. I'm at the grounds, I love football matches, I really enjoy it. I love talking football. I enjoy doing a diversity of stuff now. I travel a lot and do a lot of leadership, motivational speaking with companies, which I really enjoy, trying to help them out.

Do I miss it? Every now and then if I go back in and see Moyesy and have a day at Everton, I love the environment. But to do it every day is 24/7 football. My life has diversified a little bit. I love the life I live now. But every time I go back into a footballing environment, just the smell of it is fantastic.

Jeff Stelling: Never tempted, whether it be Wealdstone or Forest came along with some role for you?

Stuart Pearce: I've been fortunate when I've been out of the game. With Kenny Jackett, Kenny had me in at Portsmouth and I used to just do a bit of coaching there. Or I do a little bit of coaching with young kids now with a company called Campioni every now and then. It gives me a little fix of doing something which I quite enjoy. But it's all or nothing, really. For me time-wise, I enjoy what I do.

Jeff Stelling: Brilliant. Stuart, talk of time, we are out of it. It's been a joy.

Stuart Pearce: Brilliant. Thank you so much. My pleasure. 

Jeff Stelling: Really enjoyed talking to you, mate.

You have been watching the Jeff Stelling Show with OLBG. Join us next time if you can.