John Barnes on Kicking a Ball About with Marvin Gaye, the Real World in Motion Payday and His Honest Bellingham Verdict on Jeff Stelling Show

When Marvin Gaye turned up for a kickabout

The standout anecdote, the kind of story you simply do not hear on football podcasts, comes from Barnes's Watford days. Yes, that Marvin Gaye. 

Barnes takes Jeff back to the moment the Sexual Healing icon ended up on a football pitch with him, in a story that captures the improbable, glamorous, chaotic energy of the Elton John-era Vicarage Road.

That Marvin Gaye story is not a one-off. Barnes credits Graham Taylor and chairman Elton John for shaping him as both a footballer and a person, painting a warm picture of a Watford dressing room that punched miles above its weight and made the improbable feel routine. 

It is a lovely reminder of the club that gave English football one of its most iconic wingers.

Barnes on Jude Bellingham

With England's World Cup campaign around the corner, Barnes gives Jeff his straight-talking take on Jude Bellingham. 

Measured, fair and delivered with the same analytical clarity Barnes brings to everything, it is exactly the kind of assessment fans will want to hear ahead of a huge summer for Thomas Tuchel's squad.

Full Transcript

JS: Hello, and welcome to the Jeff Stelling Show with OLBG. My guest today is recognised as one of the country's greatest ever footballers, and he scored what is broadly accepted to be the finest goal ever scored for the England team. His career started when he came on as a substitute in a less than a glamorous sounding second tier fixture, Watford against Oldham. He would go on to enjoy a glorious decade at Liverpool, where he won league titles and FA Cups. He was twice the Football Writers' Player of the Year, and he was recognised by his peers as the PFA Players' Player of the Year as well. And he likes a sing song. Welcome, John Barnes.

JB: More a rap than a sing song. There is a difference, a subtle difference.

JS: Is there a subtle difference.

JB: Absolutely. Rapping is more like talking, and I speak quickly, whereas singing is more melodic.

JS: Right, okay. We will come back to rapping a bit later in the show. I mentioned Watford, and I have a picture of you in your very early days there. There you go, splendid.

JB: You are just looking at the hair, aren't you?

JS: I had noticed the difference, to be honest, but now you have pointed it out. I was looking through your records at Watford. You made 292 appearances in all competitions, and the only time you were a substitute was on your debut. That is amazing.

JB: It is interesting how I made my debut. I came to England when I was twelve and a half. My dad was a diplomat, so it was a diplomatic posting for four years, and after those four years the family were going to go back, as my dad was going to become head of the army in Jamaica. I only played rugby at school. I went to St Marylebone Grammar School and played football for a local club, but I knew I was only going to be in England for four years. I had been offered a football scholarship to Howard University to study international relations.

Three months before that was due to happen, I was playing for Sudbury Court at Vale Farm in Wembley, and a taxi driver happened to drive by, which I didn't know. He stopped to watch the game. Nobody else was watching, and I didn't know anybody was there. He knew a scout, and he must have told the scout to come and watch me, because the first thing we knew was my dad getting a call saying, we know John is going to go back to Jamaica or on to America, but will he come and train at Watford for a month before he goes?

So I trained at Watford for a month at 17 years old, and then they asked if I wanted to stay and offered me a contract. That was the first time I had been involved in a professional setup. I was never an apprentice, never in a youth team, never at a professional club. At 17 years old I signed for Watford, had the preseason there, and played one or two games in the reserves before the season started.

For the first game of the season, Watford played away at Newcastle, and the reserves, and this is why I love the old days, used to play at home on a Saturday at three o'clock. The first team played away, the reserves played at home, so there were only 300 people in the stand, but you were in the stadium. Reserves now play all over the place. I scored a goal against Swindon at 17 years old in my first reserve game for Watford.

Luther Blissett got sent off at Newcastle in that first game of the season, and back then, if you got sent off, you just missed the next game. So for the second game of the season, Graham Taylor put me on the bench for the first team after one reserve game. I came on with about ten or thirteen minutes to go, and I must have done okay, though I don't think it was that spectacular. For the third game of the season, Luther came back into the team, and I expected to go back to the reserves. But Graham Taylor didn't put me on the bench. He put me in the team against Chelsea away, and I was there ever since.

JS: Yes, we will talk about Graham Taylor's influence on you a bit later. Funnily enough, it is incredible looking through it. 292 appearances, 291 of them as starts. The guy you replaced that day, do you remember his name?

JB: Well, when I came on as a sub, Wilf Rostron was there, and Keith Pritchett was left back. Wilf Rostron used to play on the left side. Was he from Wolves?

JS: No. The only reason I know it is because, inevitably on this show, everything always comes back to Hartlepool. It was a fella called Malcolm Poskett.

JB: Malcolm Poskett, of course, but Malcolm was a centre forward. He did play for Hartlepool. I was thinking that I came on the left wing, so somebody must have gone to play up front. Gerry Armstrong was probably up front, so I assumed it was a left winger. But yes, I know Malcolm well, and Malcolm played for Hartlepool, didn't he?

JS: He played for Hartlepool. Actually, there is a little story about when we signed him. We signed him from Whitby Town, and of course we were absolutely cash strapped. We had no money whatsoever, and Whitby Town needed some development done on their ground. They needed new turnstiles, so we paid for their new turnstiles, and they gave us Malcolm Poskett in return.

JB: How long was he at Hartlepool for?

JS: A couple of seasons, I think. He went on to Brighton, and he was a good goalscorer. Look, let's do the serious stuff and get it out of the way first, John.

JB: I thought that was the serious stuff.

JS: Recently you announced that you had prostate cancer. How did you find out?

JB: I found out, and this was quite a while ago, only because I got checked. Two of my kids are doctors, my dad died of prostate cancer, and of course it is prevalent in the black community anyway. So about six years ago I started doing my PSA tests. My kids insisted I got checked because I was around 56 at the time. I didn't have any symptoms, but as you should, you should get checked even if you have no symptoms.

After being checked, my PSA was fairly high, and then of course you have the very uncomfortable physical check as well, and my prostate was slightlyraised, which in itself means nothing, because a lot of men die with prostate cancer rather than from it. I then had the biopsy, which is the ultimate test, and which was terrible. They have to take about 40 snips. It confirmed that yes, I had prostate cancer, but it was contained within the prostate, which means it could stay there forever without causing problems, but if it burst out, it could be serious. My kids, the two doctors, said to me, why take the chance of it bursting out? So I didn't have to have the operation, but I did.

JS: And I know it became public knowledge almost accidentally, didn't it?

JB: I will tell you why I didn't say anything at the time. My dad died of prostate cancer, and my mother was living in Jamaica by herself. My sisters are in America, and I am her only son. Having lost her husband to prostate cancer, and with her then being 73, I didn't want her to know, so I didn't say anything. My mother, I can tell you, became a barrister at 69, because she is very proud. She decided to do a law degree and became a barrister. But she was there by herself, so I said nothing, and I wondered whether I would ever tell her.

My mother passed away a year ago, and because it had been about four years since I had the operation, I had almost forgotten that I could now talk about it. Then, about six weeks ago, in the buildup to the World Cup, I was doing one of those media days where you go from radio station to radio station, LBC and so on. I was with two women, older women, and all of a sudden the subject of cancer came up. It was actually about Kevin Keegan and Kenny Dalglish, but I thought they were talking about me. Because I am a professional, I didn't say, how do you know? I just said, well yes, I had prostate cancer about four years ago, and so on. They never batted an eyelid, so I assumed they must have known. So I spoke about it, and that is when it all came out, because they had really been talking about Kevin and Kenny. But I am glad it came out inadvertently in that way, because now we can just talk about it openly.

JS: And it is important, because it being prominent in the headlines raises awareness of prostate cancer.

JB: Absolutely. However, it is still a personal, individual thing, and if somebody feels they don't want to talk about it, that is fine by me. I am not saying that everybody should come out and talk about it. For me, the real reason I didn't say anything was my mother, and by the time she had passed away, I had almost forgotten about it. So I am glad it came out inadvertently.

JS: The big message you are putting across is right, because I did 34 marathons to raise awareness and funds for prostate cancer, and I had not had a test myself, even though I was preaching to people that they must get tested. I have been tested since, and I am absolutely fine. But the big thing is, go and get tested.

JB: There is a big stigma attached to it. From a woman's perspective, breast cancer screening has been around for years and years and there is no stigma attached to it. Whereas macho men feel that we are going to be seen as less than virile, that it may affect your sexual drive, and we don't want anyone to know. That is the main reason, on top of the physical test itself, which is unpleasant as well.

JS: Let's talk World Cup, John. England's been a bit of a mixed bag so far. What do you say?

JB: Everybody's a mixed bag, you know. I always felt that when I played for England, unless you won every single game and played well, everyone's going to get you with either positivity, we're going to win the World Cup, or negativity because we drew with Ghana. 

Now I remember, even to this day, you look at Spain drawing with Cape Verde, Germany and Spain and France, and all these teams in the World Cup leading up to it. They could draw against some minnows, and they don't go crazy and get depressed. Why in England do we feel that we're going to beat everyone by five and play sparkling football? So, yeah, when we played against Croatia, we played well, and again against Croatian time. But in the second half, you could see what we did, and because of the Ghana performance, we're being negative all of a sudden. Listen, it's a long tournament, and you're building up to trying to peak at certain times. 

So, yeah, I'm not worried about that last performance. So, what do you say, a mixed bag? Mixed bag. Yeah, but we also have to have respect for other nations. These nations are very good, they're very strong, and they can come and defend deep against us. In the old days, everybody wanted attacking football. So when you played teams like Ghana and the so called lesser teams, they would try to attack you. With an open game, you'd beat them fine, and they'd say, "Oh, well done, you came to try to attack." Whereas now they say, "If we want to compete, we're going to have to defend and not make it easy for you," and that's what happens in football these days.

JS: Yeah, I read some criticism of Ghana because of their approach, because of the low block, which I didn't understand myself because they've come there to compete…

JB: Why are we complaining about their set pieces when they're not playing for them, and they're doing this because you want to win? If that's the way you have to win, it's great when you say, "Let's play the way Man City plays." If we play against Man City, they beat us six. "Oh, but at least we try to open up against them." Why? If they're better than you and they can beat you, then why not compete in whichever way you can to get a result? And that's what they did.

JS: What's your view so far of the starting wingers who've both come in for a bit of criticism, Anthony Gordon and Noni Madueke?

JB: Well, first of all, you have to look at the way the team plays. The team plays for Declan Rice to do what he does, Jude Bellingham to get forward and score goals, and for Harry Kane to do what he does. They're not designed for those wingers to be creative, you know, because the wings are going to be very creative. You're not going to see Jude Bellingham getting forward because the midfielders are going to be the ones. What they do is work hard for the team. We're not necessarily playing in a fluent manner because of the personnel we actually have. I suppose if you had Phil Foden or Cole Palmer, who are much more inventive, even with that, you wouldn't see much from the wingers. So, I haven't got a problem with that. They're working hard for the team, they're getting back defending, they're getting forward, they're breaking forward, they're holding the ball up. So, I don't expect them to all of a sudden play sparkling football. 

Depending on, Marcus Rashford could be different, because the type of player he is, he may come and do something else. But they're just being good teammates and good team members, and that's what Thomas Tuchel wants.

JS: Do you think that the thought has gone through Thomas Tuchel's head that maybe, just maybe, I should have done as some people have suggested, taking Cole Palmer as a game changer, or maybe Phil Foden?

JB: Well, no, because the way he plays, his philosophy on football is he wants strong midfield players. He wants consistent players, and he wants Morgan Rogers, Declan Rice, and Jude Bellingham, who can get up and down. If he feels this is where we're going to play, this is the way we play. 

The problem the wingers have is because they're so direct and dynamic. When you have a centre forward like Harry Kane, who's going to come off to get the ball and play wide, and they're going to run down the wing, he's not going to get in the box to keep up with them. So therefore, there's no point them being wingers as wingers in terms of getting involved, because they're so direct and dynamic, but he's coming short to play them in. Who's then going to get in the box? Maybe Jude Bellingham can get in there, so the team isn't designed for these wingers to get the ball and get it into them. So, if, for example, Ollie Watkins or Ivan Toney were playing, then that would be different. But I think with Harry Kane in the team, it's going to be difficult for them to be as creative because they're so dynamic and so quick and Harry Kane is not just going to stand up there waiting for the ball to come into the box, he's coming short to make those passes for them. Who's going to get in the box? So, as I said, if the team is going to perform in a way that they're going to win football matches, and they're going to be part of that without necessarily either scoring the goals or creating for Harry Kane, then I've got no issue.

JS: What do you make of Thomas Tuchel so far at this tournament? Because there couldn't be a greater contrast than with Gareth Southgate, could there? We all saw the shots of Tuchel bellowing at Djed Spence during the course of the last England game. I mean, that's something that Gareth would never have done. 

JB: We knew who we were getting. We've known Thomas Tuchel for years, even before he went to Chelsea. So why do we expect anything different from him? So for anybody to be surprised that he's going to be, and maybe even taking off Jude Bellingham and Harry Kane, who knows? But that's what he's going to do. So you take him and you put up with him, or you don't take him. He's exactly as we expected. I think he's actually softened. I've seen the way he was at Chelsea, and he was obviously much more of a cipher and probably much more condemning of his players and much more critical when they don't play well. So he, I think, has softened. But he still is Thomas Tuchel. 

JS: What is acceptable, do you think, at this tournament for England, and what is acceptable for people to see Thomas Tuchel as a success?

JB: Well, first of all, I always talk about Cup matches, be it the FA Cup when you talk about needing a good Cup run. You don't know if you're going to play well, so how could you have a good Cup run? We won a good FA Cup run this year. You get matches in the third round, probably not going to win. So what's acceptable? And the way that the World Cup is now designed, and it has been for a few years, is for the big boys to go through, which means they can't really avoid each other until they get to the latter stages. The unknown factor is if you finish first or second, you could be in a half of the draw which could be very difficult. For example, Gareth has been very fortunate. Gareth, until he lost in the semi-final, they never played anybody in the top ten, so therefore you've got a good chance of going through. So, depending on who you play, the way it's designed means you're really going to avoid the big boys. So if you get to the semi-finals and you're going to play Spain or France, then yes, you can beat them, but they can beat you. So it's not a failure, you know? When people talk about failure, if you're ranked number four in the world and you finish second, is that failure? You know, failure for me would be France if they don't win the World Cup. That's failure for me. What's acceptable? I will wait to see who we play, and then we can decide whether we should win this game or not. But the way it's designed, I think we should be getting to the semi-final at least.

JS: Fingers crossed. I mean, when you talk about who you're going to play, Scottish football fans will be pointing right now at the fact that they had Brazil and Morocco in their group…

JB: Who should beat them, and did beat them. Okay, disappointing for them, but all you can ask anyone to do is maximise the potential of the team, and I think they have. I think Steve Clarke got the maximum attention of that Scottish team. Because if you look at that, you would expect them to finish third. Yes, it would be nice if they could have drawn against Morocco, which would mean they got four points, but they lost one nil. They lost three nil to Brazil, but you know, why do we expect anything different from them? And that's not being critical, it's just that the reality is that they're playing against two teams that are better than them.

JS: So, who's going to win it?

JB: I can't see past France, and I'll tell you why. I can't see past France because they've got a good balance, and once again, France have been like this for a while. Didier Deschamps is a strong manager. The players, regardless of how they play for their clubs, when Mbappé plays for Real Madrid, maybe a particular type of player character, when you go to play for France, Spain is similar. You have respect for the team and all your teammates. You're not a superstar in terms of "I'm going to do what I want." Ousmane Dembélé epitomises that for me because he is now thinking Kylian Mbappé is the one under World Player of the Year. "I won this, and Mbappé seems to be the number nine, so I'm going to do stuff for him in terms of working hard and creating for him, and I'm going to get the same respect." So they're a team, and more importantly, the balance they have, where they have four attackers and six defenders. 

Aurélien Tchouaméni and Adrien Rabiot are the two most important players for me. They sit in front of the back four. You look at them at Real Madrid and wherever Rabiot plays in Italy, and they just get the ball, play simple, and defend. In England, we wouldn't accept that because we've got to be better than that. You've got to be able to do all this kind of stuff. So our balance isn't right, theirs is. And with the front four they have, and five if Deschamps brings someone on, if Ousmane Dembélé plays, and Mbappé, Dembélé, and Ousmane, you know, they really just say "you," but when they lose the ball, they come back and defend. 

The other six defend, they attack. Now, what drives me mad with England is when you have a player like Declan Rice, for example. He's a fantastic player, a defensive midfielder player. Now, defensive midfield players, because you're so good, you can attack and score goals. But you recognise your role as a defensive midfielder. We also then say, "He's too good for that. Get forward and score goals, be more creative." They don't say that to Rabiot and Tchouaméni because they say, "If you have that front four, we've got to defend," so they've got the best balance. 

Spain are very good technically. I just feel they haven't got a goal scorer, you know. Let me have a meeting, who's going to score goals? And they're very technical, a very good team. I just feel France, physically, technically, tactically, and they're very athletic and intense as well. They're very strong. But I don't know why, if anything could happen, and Brazil are looking good as well.

JS: John, talking about World Cups, I think people forget how hard it is to win tournaments. I was looking back through the records at the 1988 Euros as an example. I looked at the England team then. Lineker, Beardsley, Waddle, Hoddle, Bryan Robson, Shilton, Tony Adams, Viv Anderson, yourself. And yet that England team lost all three games.

JB: We lost, but we shouldn't have lost to the Republic of Ireland. We had so many chances, and Gary missed a lot of chances, but this happens in cup football. Then of course there was the USSR. It was much more difficult back then, because there were fewer teams, but stronger teams. Once the USSR broke up into all of those separate nations, and once Yugoslavia broke up, the European nations fragmented, which means it is much easier now than playing against those teams. They were very strong, all of those nations, and there weren't as many of them, so it was much more difficult back then.

As for winning tournaments, if you go through the history of the World Cup, not many teams have won it. Since the mid nineties you have seen teams come up as dark horses, Nigeria in 98, Morocco reaching the semifinal, but not many teams have won the World Cup. Once you get to the quarterfinals and semifinals, it is the same old faces, the Englands, the Spains, the Frances. Portugal have never won the World Cup. Think about that. It is such a difficult thing to win, because the hardest part is putting a run together.

I used to say this about the Rugby World Cup. There it is always New Zealand, England, South Africa. They don't have that many strong teams, so you can beat one or two teams and win it. Whereas the problem with the football World Cup is that once you get to the last 16 or the last eight, you have to put a run together, a good team in the last 16, a good team in the last eight, a good team in the semifinal, a good team in the final. To win four games in a row against top teams is difficult. That is why, regardless of what goes on early on, it is going to be the same old faces.

JS: Even in those days, in 88, the groups at the tournament proper were impossibly difficult. You mentioned that you had the USSR, but the Netherlands were in your group too. Look at that squad. Gullit, Van Basten, Koeman.

JB: And they won it, in fact.

JS: Frank Rijkaard, Arnold Muhren, goodness me.

JB: What you look at to go through is a game like England against Croatia now. You want a good first win. Like Scotland with their first win against Haiti, it gives you a chance. Once you lose that first game to the Republic of Ireland, with all due respect, the next two games become so difficult. Back then you really wanted to get off to a good start, which we didn't, and we paid for it.

JS: Yes. Let's take a look at you in your England gear.

JB: I am just looking at the hair once again, and the shorts.

JS: Even more hair, and shorts.

JB: They were obscene, those shorts. Brilliant.

JS: But look, in your England career, what struck me was that the spotlight was always on you. You were always expected to deliver, weren't you? How difficult was that?

JB: I can tell you, my favourite England player, my favourite British player, and the Scots and the Irish will thank me for calling him British, technically the best player I have played with or seen, and to this day he would be the first name on my team sheet, is Glenn Hoddle. Technically, Glenn Hoddle was unbelievable. But back then football wasn't about technique. English football was about fighting, it was about aggression. It was similar when we played the Republic of Ireland. Gary would score the goals, Terry Butcher would get his head cut open, Bryan Robson would be up and down. The technical players weren't used correctly, because that is the way football was.

How many caps did Glenn Hoddle get? Forty nine, fifty? Chris Waddle and myself, we were called inconsistent compared to the way we played for our clubs. People used to say to me, play for England the way you play for your club. And I would say, well, if England played the way my club played, I would. Whereas now, in the last 15 years or so, with the Cole Palmers and the Phil Fodens, English club football has changed, so the technical players are much more appreciated. Back then it was always difficult for the flair players, the technical players, because that is just not the way England played. So I completely understand the frustration that people had, and Bobby Robson would say the same, play the way you play for your club. But Glenn Hoddle went to France and became the best foreign player in France, and Chris Waddle did the same. It was just the wrong time for us. That is why I would love to play now, where nobody is going to kick you, and you are going to get the ball. You can be much more technical now than you could back then. But you can only play when you play.

JS: Obviously everybody remembers and talks about the goal at the Maracana against Brazil. Was it almost a burden to carry?

JB: Because the expectation was that you were going to do that every week. But I explain it very simply. Liverpool played a very technical game. We played like a European team, playing out from the back with Alan Hansen, lots of passes in midfield. The reason I played better for Liverpool is that I made better decisions. Because I knew we were going to dominate possession and keep the ball, I made better decisions when I got it. If the right thing to do was play it off first time and keep it simple, I did, because I knew I would get it again in 20 seconds. I would play it off simply again, and I would get it again. Then I could pick the time when I thought it was right to do the special stuff, because I knew I was going to get so much possession.

When I played for England, because of the way we played, every time I got the ball I felt I had to do something special, because I might not see it again for ten minutes. So I was making the wrong decisions, dribbling at the wrong times, because I felt I always had to produce something. For Liverpool, I knew I could play it off first time. Lionel Messi plays first time passes and one and two touch football 90 per cent of the time, because he knows he is going to get a lot of the ball, and then he makes the right decisions about when to dribble. For England I was making the wrong decisions, because I felt, I am here to do this and I am not going to get the ball again. And if it didn't work, I would try even harder the next time. The way we played just didn't suit me, or Chris Waddle, or Glenn Hoddle.

JS: He is a very different player, but when I think about the spotlight that was on you then, and the level of expectation when you pulled on an England shirt, and when you talk about making the wrong decisions, can you appreciate that maybe Jude Bellingham finds life a bit difficult in an England shirt for similar reasons?

JB: Yes, and he shouldn't, because he is not a player like me, Chris Waddle or Glenn Hoddle. He is a number eight, not a number ten, which means he is very dynamic. He can get forward, he can score goals, he can get back, he can tackle. He is not a Phil Foden or a Cole Palmer. I think that since his move he has felt that the number ten role is what he does, but that is not what he does, that is not who he is. Thomas Tuchel has him in the team for his energy and strength.

Maybe now he feels he is a playmaker, a number ten who is going to get the ball and nutmeg people, but that is not what he does. When he first came on the scene, he was getting forward, tackling, arriving in the box. The goal he scored against Croatia, for example, that is what he does. He is still young, and so much has happened to him, and because of his prestige and profile he may now think he has to be a number ten playmaker like a Messi or a Ronaldo, which is not what he is. And that is not a criticism of him, because for what he does, getting forward to score goals and working hard for the team, Thomas Tuchel loves him. He is like a Steven Gerrard. If you said to him, you are going to play as a number six, as a holding defensive midfield player, he could do that. But if you say to him, play like Cole Palmer as a number ten in tight areas, that is not his game. At times he gets caught trying to do that, and then he gets frustrated when he loses the ball or gets fouled. But no, he and Harry are probably still our most important players.

JS: He probably still has to learn that the English psyche is that we prefer to talk about people's failings rather than their strengths.

JB: He is a strong character. I have met his mum and dad, and they are strong people, good people, and he is a fantastic player. A lot of people are looking at him now, throwing his arms up and doing certain things, and maybe that is his character, which is fine. I am just talking from a playing perspective. He is a number eight, and he shouldn't try to do what Cole Palmer and Phil Foden do, because that is not who he is.

JS: When you look back at your England career then, John, do you feel that you underachieved or not?

JB: I maximised my potential in the team that I was in. I couldn't have done any better in that team, because of the way the team played. As I said about Glenn Hoddle and Chris Waddle, if you think about us as the three technical players, we all underachieved in that respect, but I don't think we could have done any better, given the nature of the way the team played. Glenn Hoddle playing today would be an unbelievable player, Chris Waddle the same, and I would love to fit into a team now, any of the top teams, because of the way they play. So I am not thinking I could have done better. Knowing my role within that team, with the formation and the tactics that were used back then, I don't think I could have done any better, even if that may not have been great.

JS: I think it was pretty great at times.

JB: There were individual moments, the goal against Brazil, the goal against Uruguay. There were individual moments when you think, I did that. But I didn't do it all the time, because most of the time we didn't have the ball. Most of the time we were chasing back, trying to win the ball, and we weren't getting passes in the right areas at the right times, because we were playing with different types of players who didn't play that type of football. England was designed for us to defend well, to be strong, to win tackles in midfield and get the ball forward for Gary Lineker to score, and that is how we won. Even against Egypt in the World Cup, technically they were better than us, but back then, with the rules of the game, you could be very physical, and that is how we competed, by being more physical than them. That is how the Republic of Ireland competed too. So for the technical players, it didn't really suit us.

JS: When you did take criticism, and I look back at that squad, John, you and Viv Anderson were the only two black players in the England squad. My goodness, how things have changed now. But was there an element of racism about the criticism that you took, do you think?

JB: Not from the press, but obviously from the fans, because there was racism all over football back then, with the shouting and the throwing of bananas onto the field. But even back then, as it is now, if you did well and scored, they loved you. If you didn't play well, that is when your colour became an issue. And we thought that had gone. We thought we had got rid of racism, and all it took was for three black players to miss penalties, and then you saw what actually happened. This is an issue in society, not just in football. Football is a part of society, and if it exists in society, it will exist in all walks of society, of which football happens to be one, and management happens to be another. Just look around society generally.

From an intellectual and moral point of view, until black people are seen as equal intellectually and morally, they will never be seen as equal. We can look at athletes and footballers playing well and think we have got rid of it, because we love Frank Bruno, we love Jude Bellingham, and we loved Saka, didn't we? And we loved them until they missed penalties, and then you saw what happened. It is a very shallow and simplistic way of looking at racism, whereby if we don't hear the abuse, we think it doesn't exist.

JS: I am not going to ask you for names, but did you ever feel there was any element of racism towards you within the squads themselves?

JB: Racism exists everywhere. So while there wasn't racism aimed at me, because they were my teammates, some of my teammates would racially abuse other players. Does that mean they are not racist because they are not racially abusing me? This is the environment they were brought up in. This is how they have been conditioned to think. As much as they loved me as their teammate, I don't blame them at all. This is the environment we live in, where bias exists.

You can look at it from a female perspective as well, in terms of the perception we have of female footballers and female pundits. It is how we have been wrongly conditioned to think about race, gender, religion, even north and south, as we well know, with you being down here in the south. Interestingly, I do lots of events down here, and I was at one yesterday, speaking to a lot of girls who work in the media, and I could hear a hint of a Midlands accent, a Birmingham accent actually. I said, what has happened to your accent? They would never admit it, but when you come down here and you want to work in the media, you can't be speaking with a strong Birmingham or Liverpool accent, because of the perception that people from the north are not as intelligent. So it is not just about race. Fortunately for you, you are at a stage now where you can keep your Hartlepool accent, but I am sure it has suffered.

JS: Oh look, John, when I first came down to London I worked for a station called LBC. I had only been there two or three weeks, and I had never been out of the North East before, so I spoke with a pretty strong Hartlepool accent. I had only been on air for maybe two or three weeks when my boss got a letter saying, for goodness sake, get the new bloke, the one with the Geordie accent, off the air, we can't understand a word he says. My boss wrote back, very defensively, and said, Jeff has a regional accent, and I am sure you would agree that in this day and age regional accents should be encouraged. This bloke wrote back again and said, yes, regional accents should be, but speech defects should not.

JB: The interesting thing about that, Jeff, is that while we talk about it being about fitting in, it is really about perception, and a negative perception. I will tell you why. If a person from down south with a London accent goes up to Liverpool or Newcastle or anywhere like that, they don't feel they have to change their accent, and they would not change it, because the perception is that they are from the south, they are more intelligent, they are better. So as much as people say it is about fitting in, why don't people from the south, when they go up north, try to put on a Geordie accent?

JS: Yes, it is an interesting point. They hold on to their accents. I remember my best mate, actually, when he first turned up at school, though he wasn't my mate then. He was from Slough, and in Hartlepool we had never met anybody from Slough. These were exotic creatures, and he spoke with this exotic accent, almost Cockney in a way. And because of that, there was a certain level of prejudice against him. I was just desperate for friends, so I put my arm around him and said, come on, son. Look, no criticism now, just reflect on your career.

JB: There was plenty of criticism.

JS: No, these are the positive things. Tony Adams would have you in his all time dream team. Peter Beardsley, and I know you are mates, described you as the best player in the world for three or four seasons. Jamie Carragher called you the best technical player he ever played or trained with. I notice he didn't mention your rapping, by the way. When you look back at your career and hear comments like that, it must give you a buzz.

JB: Well, you mentioned criticism. I remember when I was about 19, playing for England, and of course we are fairly perverse in England, in that we love the underdog. In America they don't want the underdog, they want the person who is going to be the best. The press loved Watford, the underdog. We finished second in the league, beating Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester United. Liverpool won the league, we were second, Manchester United third. They loved me playing for Watford. But when I played for England, the press were giving me a hard time, and I was 19 and going through all of this. I remember Graham Taylor saying to me, when you play for Watford and the media tell you that you are fantastic and brilliant, if you believe them, then when you play for England and they criticise you, you have to believe that as well. So you don't take the praise or the criticism from the press.

The people you listen to are your teammates, your fans, your managers, people who know you. That is how I handled it. Gazza couldn't handle that, because the press used to love Gazza, and he played up to them, went out with them, loved them. Then they criticised him, and he hated them. I didn't get involved in any of that. So those are nice words from people I take notice of. And when you mention that I won the PFA Player of the Year and the Football Writers' Player of the Year, the writers' award twice and the PFA once, with all due respect to the sportswriters, the PFA one meant more to me, because it comes from your peers. That is who you really listen to.

JS: I get that completely. You mentioned one of your managers there. You had some big name managers internationally and at club level over the years, but would your first manager at club level be your favourite? Graham Taylor?

JB: Absolutely, absolutely. I suppose you have to be careful saying things like this, but my wife understands. It is like your first girlfriend, isn't it? But it is not only that. He influenced me greatly, because he was very similar to my dad. My dad was a colonel in the army, very strict, very disciplined, and that is the way I was brought up.

When I first came to England, I played for Stowe Boys Club at 13 years old, a fantastic boys club. We won every game in Regents Park. I came late to the team, because the others had been there from 12 and I joined at 13, in the under 13s. Nobody wanted to play centre back, so my dad said, you are going to play centre back for your team, because your first responsibility is to the team, not to yourself. I was never a centre back, but for four years I played there. Before I went to Watford, I played as a centre back. Responsibility to the team, and that is exactly what Graham Taylor spoke about.

At Watford, very much like how managers should be, like Jurgen Klopp and Pep Guardiola, you had a responsibility to your position. The left back plays this way, and so on. Graham was like that, and we understood everybody's position, everybody's role. Playing on the left wing, I knew how the right back should play, as a right back, not as John Barnes. I remember playing against Liverpool at 20 years old, and Graham picked the team on the day. He said to me, you are playing in midfield now, to man mark John Wark. I had never played in midfield before, but I understood how Kenny Jackett played in midfield. So I man marked John Wark for the 90 minutes. He never got a kick, until he scored the winner. I lost him once, and he scored the winner.

The point I am making is that my responsibility was always to the team. I had so much discipline, and that is what Graham Taylor demanded, and that is how we finished second in the league. Watford had been playing Hartlepool in the fourth division only a few years earlier, as you know, and 80 per cent of those players had played in the fourth division when we finished second in the league to Liverpool, with Manchester United third. Ray Train, Malcolm Poskett, they would have been playing in the fourth division. How could that happen? Because of Graham Taylor as a manager. A very strong manager.

JS: Yes, incredible. And it is a reflection of what you were saying earlier, because when he was manager of Watford, everybody loved him. When he became manager of England, suddenly the critics were out.

JB: Absolutely, and he was very naive, because I can tell you, Graham Taylor loved England. He was a person who believed we were all in this together, that we were going to get praise and everybody wanted us to do well. At Watford he had that, because the press loved Watford beating the big boys. Unfortunately, as you well know, with the England media, and Bobby Robson went through something similar, Graham couldn't understand it. He thought everybody had to love England. So he opened himself up to the press, thinking, I will just be open and honest with you, because surely you want us to do well too. And of course it doesn't work that way. He was naive in that, and Bobby went through something similar. But he was such an honourable man. He was a great man.

JS: Graham was a dream to deal with from a media perspective as well. I remember, and this goes back some time when things were very different, I was working for 5 Live and covering, I think, West Ham against Aston Villa when he was Villa manager. Afterwards the radio station wanted to do a live piece, and in those days you literally went and knocked on the dressing room door. I knocked on the Villa dressing room door, and Graham answered it and said, what do you want? I said, just a player for a live interview. He said, who do you want? I said, well, Allan Evans. And you could hear him shout, Evans, out of the shower, 5 Live want you now, five minutes. And that was the way it worked.

JB: I have a story that shows how strong he was, an unbelievable story, because this would have been 1983, maybe 84, when there wasn't even a conversation to be had about racism in football. There was racist abuse at football matches and nobody batted an eyelid. Nobody talked about it. Now, Watford is a very inoffensive club, as you know. We were playing against Oldham, and they had a centre forward, a black player, Roger Palmer. This is 1983, and of course you don't hear much abuse at Vicarage Road anyway. I am sure it goes on, but you don't really hear it.

Half time came, and we went into the dressing room. Graham wasn't there, so his assistant took the team talk, and two minutes before we went out, Graham came back in and said, right, lads, let's go. We didn't know what had happened. Luther told me years later that Graham had been on the bench and had heard one or two Watford fans racially abusing Roger Palmer. How he even heard it I don't know, because Watford fans don't make much noise anyway, but he must have heard one or two comments in the stand. At half time he got the microphone, went out into the centre circle, and said, I have heard some racist abuse. We have Luther Blissett and John Barnes here. If I hear any racist abuse of any player from the opposition, you will never come to this club again. He never told the press, never told anybody, never made a song and dance about it. That was in 1983.

JS: Yes, a wonderful man. By the way, talking of great men, there was somebody else involved with Watford Football Club. There you go. Do you recognise the man in the middle?

JB: Maurice Johnston, surely, because he was a great man on a night out, I can tell you.

JS: Well, I was thinking Elton John.

JB: Elton was fantastic. Elton was great.

JS: Did you have much to do with him?

JB: Absolutely. Elton was fantastic, and let me tell you, Elton understood football. If Elton had just wanted to be the owner of a football club for the prestige, as you see now with lots of owners coming from America and elsewhere to buy clubs for the prestige, he wouldn't have bothered with the fourth division. He would have gone for Arsenal or Tottenham, he had enough money. But Watford was his club. He loved that club, he had bonded with his dad over it, and he was a real fan.

And he understood how to get success at Watford, which is how you get success at every football club. The manager is the most important person. Not you, not the owners, not the chief executives. The manager. So he was subservient to Graham. He would call him boss. Sometimes he would come in before a game, and remember, this was his club, up from the fourth division, getting into the UEFA Cup, finishing second in the league, reaching the cup final, and he would be excited, and Graham would say, Elton, leave, go away, I am trying to talk to the players. And Elton would go, sorry boss, sorry boss. Why did he do that? Because he understood that if the players see that even the owner of the football club defers to the manager, then when the manager says jump, we jump. The Hill Woods at Arsenal, the Moores family at Liverpool, they were the same. Ferguson, Dalglish, Paisley, George Graham, they were the most important people at their clubs.

Look at the three most successful clubs in the last ten years or so. Jurgen Klopp at Liverpool, he was the most important one. Pep Guardiola. Mikel Arteta, who finished eighth in his first year, eighth in his second year, then fifth, but because they backed him and allowed him to be strong, he became successful. That is what Elton did. Elton loved the club and put money into it, but I remember Graham saying, and he would say this in front of him, we know you have lots of money, and you could give us your money, but this club has to be able to stand on its own two feet. Elton would have loved to spend money, but Graham understood that is not how you get sustainable success. The club has to be the club without you. And Elton was so normal when he was around Graham. After he left, Elton was Elton, of course, but when he was around the club, we didn't see the flamboyance at all. Elton was a proper chairman. Graham would say to him, you are a proper chairman, you dress properly, and he would say it in front of the players, and Elton would go, okay boss, okay boss. He understood.

JS: I am lucky enough to know Elton a little, and he is just a good man. Look, was it daunting to go to Liverpool then? This was a massive club, Kenny Dalglish, a huge name.

JB: Well, I had six years at Watford, and probably half my England caps came at Watford, not at Liverpool. I had shown a level of consistency over a period of time that said, you are ready for Liverpool. Bryan Robson had six or seven years at West Brom. Peter Beardsley had years at Newcastle. John Aldridge the same. Nowadays a young player has one good season and costs 80 million pounds, and then you see the inconsistency. Back then, Liverpool looked at you and demanded a level of consistency. The goal against Brazil was in 1984. Did I leave then? No. I had made my debut in 83. They don't just sign you. They watch and wait.

So it was daunting in the sense of being the first black player Liverpool had signed for money, apart from Howard Gayle who had come through and played there, so there was a lot of pressure. But I felt comfortable. I was ready for it at 23, and Liverpool knew I could fit into what they wanted, because they didn't coach you, as you know. They didn't coach at Liverpool. They looked at you and decided, you can fit into what we want by working it out yourself. They judged your knowledge of how to play. Liverpool was an incredible club. They didn't coach, they didn't tell you what to do.

JS: Is it still run that way?

JB: No, no. That was Bill Shankly, Bob Paisley, Joe Fagan, Kenny Dalglish. They did it the Bill Shankly way. Times change, and now you have to coach players. Liverpool didn't sign superstar 17 and 18 year olds. They signed players at 22 or 23 whose character they could judge. Who did I say was my favourite player? Glenn Hoddle. He never played for Liverpool. Not because he wasn't good enough. They looked at your character and asked, can you fit into northern life, into being a Scouser? You can't be too pretty with a fancy haircut and tight shorts. You had to have the right character too.

I was amazed how quickly it worked in the first couple of weeks of preseason. And don't forget, Watford played long balls. How was I going to fit in with the way Liverpool played? They just said, you will be fine, son. I didn't think I would fit into the way Liverpool played, a technical team. Secondly, I thought I was going to play up front with John Aldridge, because I signed for Liverpool just after Rushy had gone, and I had played up front against Liverpool and scored a couple of goals. Every wide player wants to play centre forward. So I am thinking, I am coming to play up front with John Aldridge, because Rushy has gone. One week later, they signed Peter Beardsley. So I said to them, where am I going to play? They said, you will play on the left. I said, yes, but when I played on the left for Watford, I got the ball down the line and crossed it. Liverpool don't play that way. You will work it out, son. And from the first week in training, I am coming inside, playing one twos, getting involved from the back four, which I never did at Watford. You had to work it out yourself.

JS: Well, you worked it out pretty quickly, didn't you? Because you won the title in that first season, scored 17 goals in all competitions, and reached the FA Cup final.

JB: Do you know how many assists there were?

JS: No, I don't.

JB: Neither do I, because it wasn't a thing. You scored goals, and that was it. This whole thing about assists, come on, it is ridiculous. Listen, if I am playing with Diego Maradona and I give him the ball two yards inside the halfway line and he dribbles around ten players, I have assisted him? Come on. It is a load of rubbish.

Interestingly, the biggest lesson I learned at Liverpool was this. We won the league that year, and Ronnie Moran came in with the medals in a plastic bag. This is after we had won the league. He put them on the table and said, preseason training, July the fifth. We never got carried away, we didn't have a big celebration, because it has to be about repetition, and how do you keep that hunger? After you have done it, forget about it. Did they make a song and dance when they won it? No, because you have to be hungry to do it again. And that is the easy attitude to have when you have won. What about when you have lost? The next year, Arsenal beat us in the last minute of the last game of the season. Losers' medals on the table. Preseason training, July the fifth. We didn't wallow in self pity and despair, otherwise we would never have raised ourselves to win the league the following year, which we did. You play with authenticity, effort, commitment and determination, and if you win, you win, and if you lose, you lose. As Rudyard Kipling says, treat those two impostors, triumph and disaster, just the same. That is what we did. We gave 100 per cent, and we didn't get carried away when we won, and we didn't wallow in self pity when we lost.

JS: Was that the case after the Wimbledon cup final as well? Because that was one of the biggest shocks in football.

JB: I don't know why it should be. Wimbledon finished seventh or eighth in the top division. Okay, in terms of the size of the clubs, it was a huge upset, but if you are talking about a team who finished seventh in the top division beating a team who finished first, why is that such a big upset? That is being disrespectful to Wimbledon. I understand it in terms of the context and the size of the clubs, but in the reality of those two teams, with the international players they had, finishing seventh in the league while we won it, it wasn't that big an upset. And we didn't go into that game disrespecting them because they were Wimbledon. We played every game as if it were a cup final, against the top opposition, so we weren't complacent. In fact, if you look at that game, Peter's goal shouldn't have been disallowed, the referee was about to give us a free kick, and John Aldridge missed the penalty. It wasn't the greatest of games, but these things happen.

JS: Obviously it was a glorious decade there. Before I ask you about your favourite players, we all saw the Brazil goal, but you must have favourite goals for Liverpool. The slalom run against QPR?

JB: My favourite game was a Nottingham Forest game, which we won five nil, because that was a proper game. Forest were a good team at the time, and there was the history of Hillsborough and everything around it, the whole thing with Pearcey kicking people, the animosity. So it was a big rivalry. And when I say it was a proper game of football, I mean that when we were five nil up, if I had got the ball and wanted to nutmeg people and do tricks to show off to the crowd, and lost it, it wouldn't have mattered. We didn't do that. For the full 90 minutes, if I had to chase back at five nil up, or Ray Houghton had to chase back 50 yards to make a tackle when the game was over, we did it. We played the game as if it were nil nil, which is what you have to do. You have seen teams five nil up start to show off, and you have seen teams five nil down stop playing. I always say, play the game like it is nil nil, which means that at five nil up you still make the correct decisions. And that Nottingham Forest game, which Sir Tom Finney said was the greatest game he had ever seen, was my favourite game ever. It wasn't man of the match stuff from me necessarily, it was just a great team performance.

JS: Of all the players you played with over those ten years, was Peter Beardsley the favourite?

JB: Peter was only there for a few years, and I had played with him for England before. But when you talk about him, the person I liken him to now is my favourite Liverpool player of recent times, Roberto Firmino. When you think about Mane and Salah, the reason those two did what they did is because of Roberto Firmino, the unseen work, the hard work to create for them. Peter did the same. Peter would work hard for the team, dropping into midfield, doing a lot of the unseen work.

I have to mention Ray Houghton as well, because when you talk about balance, we got the praise down the left, Steve Nicol going down the outside and John Barnes on the left, while down the right it was Barry Venison and Ray Houghton. They didn't get as much praise as we did, because we were the flamboyant ones, but they compensated for that from a balance point of view. They were much stronger in midfield. In fact, the person who nearly made the tackle on Michael Thomas when he went through was Ray Houghton. I was somewhere else on the pitch. Players like that, I appreciate. And my favourite, I have mentioned him before, Ronnie Whelan. You remember Steve McMahon going forward and scoring goals, but Ronnie Whelan, unsung, playing on the left or in the middle, just did the work. That is a Liverpool player. Jimmy Case, Sammy Lee, those Liverpool players, not the flamboyant ones. They are the players I appreciate and love.

JS: Right, you did become a manager, a coach if you like, and went on to coach England players at Celtic, and in many people's eyes you were unfortunate to lose the job. Why do you think coaching or management didn't work out for you?

JB: Interestingly, if I told you that my record at Celtic is better than Steven Gerrard's record at Rangers, from a win percentage point of view, mine was 66 per cent at Celtic, his was 65.8 at Rangers. But of course, when you are managing Celtic, and particularly at that time, if you finish second and Rangers win the league, you are a failure.

What had happened at Celtic was disharmony and disunity at the football club at that time. Rangers were spending a lot of money, and Celtic weren't. The previous regime had a lot of players on contracts they weren't happy with. When I got there, the players thought, Dalglish and Barnes are here now, contracts are going to improve and the club will spend lots of money. And they didn't, so the players were unhappy. We won 12 of the first 13 matches, and they were still unhappy because of the politics around it. Even winning 12 of the first 13 matches, from the second, third, fourth match I was being given a hard time by the press. I didn't have a relationship with the Celtic press, and you had a lot of Celtic players, whose names I don't have to mention, who were very powerful in the press through their friends, and who were not happy. So of the first 13 matches, we won 12, drew one, lost one, we were a few points behind Rangers, and I knew it wasn't going to work, because there was just so much unhappiness at the club at that time, and I wasn't a big enough name as a manager to handle that. I remember even saying to my then wife after the first five games, don't come up, I am not going to be here long.

JS: Five games?

JB: Yes. I lived in a flat, but I didn't move the family up, because I knew it wasn't going to last. I thought, if we are four points behind Rangers and I am already going through this abuse from the media and from the fans, and the media up there are very powerful, then if I go through a sticky patch, I am finished.

Then, playing away at Lyon, Henrik Larsson broke his leg, and he wasn't going to play for us again that season. In the next game, against Rangers, we were winning two one just before half time. Paul Lambert slid in on Jorg Albertz, gave a penalty away, and as Albertz went over him, he got a knee in the jaw. It broke his jaw and he lost his teeth. They scored the penalty to make it two two, and this was just before half time. So Paul Lambert is unconscious on a stretcher, they bring him into the dressing room, and because of the crowd the ambulance couldn't get down for another 15 minutes. So I am giving my half time team talk, having been two one up and now two two, with Paul Lambert lying on the bench next to me with no teeth and a broken jaw, moaning, and the players sitting there staring. We lost that game four two. After that it became really difficult, because without Larsson and Lambert it was always going to be hard.

We had a fantastic player called Mark Viduka, who then decided he wanted to leave. In January he came in and said, right, I want to go. I said, Mark, why do you want to go? What had happened was this. When Mark Viduka first came, he came from a club in Croatia. He didn't want to go to Celtic, he wanted to go to Italy, but Celtic came in with money, cash up front, and the Croatian owner said, you are going to Celtic, I don't care what you want. So he came without really wanting to, but he started playing well. Because he had come in those circumstances, the owner at the time had said to him, just come, and if you are not happy, you can leave for four million pounds. That was the season before Kenny and I arrived. He settled, he and Larsson were scoring goals, everything was great.

But then he came to me and said, right, I want to go, because the CEO told me I could leave if I am not happy. I said, but why are you not happy? You are scoring goals, your friend Henrik, things are going well. I went to the CEO and said, did you tell him he could leave? He said, yes, but there is nothing in writing. I said, it doesn't matter whether it is in writing. You know what Mark is like. You have told him he can go, so he wants to go regardless. So now he was upset. And his best mate was our best player, Lubomir Moravcik. Do you remember Moravcik? He had come from a club in France where nobody knew of him, and he was unbelievable. When you are 31 or 32 and you come from a club like that, you sign a decent contract, but not a great one. Then, when he turned out to be the best player in Scotland, he wanted a new contract, and he wasn't getting one. So Moravcik was unhappy, Viduka wanted to leave, Larsson was out injured for the season, Lambert too. It was a disaster. And in fact, in January I got manager of the month, because we kept winning games. Manager of the month in January. February started, I lost one game, and they sacked me. But that is football.

JS: No mural on the end of a Glasgow house then. But I wanted to show you this one, because this is Anfield, obviously. It is just sensational.

JB: Yes, and there is now obviously the Jota one, and one of Kenny. And there is Rushie. I mean, Kenny and Rushie are actual legends at Anfield, so it is not a competition, but of course it is great. And because it is not the most affluent of areas, I don't think if we had played for Chelsea they would have put them up, or the people in Chelsea would have wanted them on their houses. But it is good, because when you play for Liverpool, you are part of a community, part of a family. Bill Shankly was a socialist, and when you talk about that working class era and working class people, as much as football has changed, the club still has that relationship with the community. So yes, that was a nice honour. I hope it stays there.

JS: It is wonderful. I have seen a couple of them, and they are absolutely wonderful. Look, we are going to run out of time, and I want to talk about music with you for a minute or two, because before we get to your rapping, I read a story which blew my socks off, because you are from a musical family, aren't you?

JB: Politics and music.

JS: Politics and music. So you played football in the garden with Marvin Gaye. Come on.

JB: When we came from Jamaica, my mother's family were very political. They helped start the first Jamaican government, and her family were also entrepreneurs and impresarios, and her uncle used to manage Marvin Gaye. Marvin Gaye was in concert here, and we lived in Highgate at the time, or Golders Green, and he came over for a concert, so he came to our house for dinner. I was 14 years old, mad on football at the time, and Marvin Gaye said his son played football as well, so we went and played football in the garden.

In Jamaica we don't have this hierarchy or this celebrity culture, which means that when you meet famous people, you don't take pictures and ask for autographs. Usain Bolt, for example, can walk down the street in Jamaica and people just say, hi Usain, and don't make a big deal of it.. So I look back now and think, why didn't we take any pictures with Marvin Gaye? And Bob Marley, my mom knew Bob Marley, he was on the radio station with my mom and had been to our house. In Jamaica, when you have people who are celebrities, we don't make a big deal of it.

In fact, when my dad managed the Jamaica national team, and he was a colonel in the army, there was a famous footballer for Jamaica, Allan Cole, a Rastafarian, and Bob Marley was his little sidekick. Bob Marley used to come to training with the Jamaica team when my dad was the manager, arriving with Allan Cole on the back of his bike. My dad would say, why do you keep bringing this boy into training? Because, you know, they were smoking what they were smoking. So Bob Marley, with his guitar, was always in the dressing room. It is an interesting place, Jamaica.

JS: Those are great names, and that is an image I can't get out of my head. So, the rapping. Obviously there was the rap section on World in Motion, and The Anfield Rap. Is it true that for the rap on World in Motion you were paid the grand total of 200 pounds?

JB: Well, my maths is not great, but I think it was about £5,000 into the players' pool to split between the players. We didn't know it was going to be New Order. We thought it was just going to be a World Cup song like we did in 86’, when we did a song that got to number 80, the usual players with their arms around each other, here we go, here we go. We thought that was what it was going to be.

When Bobby Robson said, go and do this new record, we didn't know it was going to be with a group like New Order. Only six players turned up to do the song: me, Gazza, Peter Beardsley, Des Walker, Steve McMahon and Chris Waddle. Nobody else turned up, because you played for your club on the Saturday, this was in February, and you were meeting up with England on the Sunday to play France in a friendly. That was when we were due to do the song. Bobby Robson said, instead of meeting up with England on the Sunday, go to these studios in Marlow, Buckinghamshire, make the record, and meet up with England on the Monday. All the players heard was, we don't have to meet up with England on Sunday, and the song is going to be terrible, because the last one in 86’ was. So they didn't come, they went to the pub, the rest of the players. When we turned up and saw Keith Allen, Peter Hook and Bernard Sumner, that was the first time we knew it was going to be a proper song with a group. We thought it was going to be like The Anfield Rap, or those Tottenham cup final songs, just the players standing around each other.

When you go to the World Cup, you sign an agreement covering sponsorships and money coming into the players' pool, including the song. We had a choice, and of course the committee was made up of the bright ones, Shilton and Lineker. The choice was, you can take royalties, or you can take a lump sum into the players' pool, five grand to share between you. And the committee said, well, do royalties mean that if the record doesn't sell, we get nothing? They said yes. So the committee said, we will take the five grand. Because we didn't know it was going to be a New Order song. I think we made the wrong decision.

JS: And how did you get the starring role?

JB: I got the starring role because, well, give me a second. First of all, we live in a democracy, so I couldn't just declare myself the best one. Remember who was there. Me, Gazza, Peter Beardsley, Chris Waddle, Des Walker. Really it was between me and Des, and Des is not black, musically, let me tell you. So I did it. But we all had to have a go at the rap. Everybody had to attempt it, and then they listened to them all and gave it to me.

I tell this story because I was working at a place in Leicester about ten years ago, and the sound engineer there said his dad was a sound engineer in 1990 when we made the song, and he has a recording of Paul Gascoigne's and Peter Beardsley's attempts at the rap, live in 1990, and he actually sent it to me. I have it on my phone. I don't know if you want me to play it?

JS: Why not?

JB: Then you can hear why I did the song instead of Paul Gascoigne and Peter Beardsley. Allow me just to get it up on my phone, and I will put it to the microphone. I am sure you don't need rights for this. Gazza wasn't bad, actually. Gazza was quite good. So here is Gazza's attempt at the rap, live in 1990, and then you can hear Peter's, and Peter knows I love him. One more time, Paul Gascoigne.

(Recording plays)

JS: Will we notice the change from Gazza to Peter?

JB: You listen to Gazza, and then you tell me. Have you heard Gazza speak? Have you heard Peter speak? Here is Peter.

(Recording plays)

JS: Okay, we get it. Now we know why Peter didn't get the gig.

JB: Gazza ran me close, though.

JS: You obviously weren't aware at the time what a big part of your life that would become. People still ask for it now.

JB: Think about it. First of all, we didn't know it was going to be a New Order song. We thought it was going to be our song. I remembered 86’, when the song entered the charts at number 80 and left at 96, and we thought it was going to be similar. So we did the song and then went to the World Cup. The song came out, but we were in Italy while they were playing it here. Everyone at home was excited, but we didn't know, because we were in Italy, and it is not like now, where you have social media and everything comes straight back to you. We didn't know what was happening until it got to number one while we were out there.

Then we had a live link up with Top of the Pops, and for that live link up all of the players were there talking about the record. As I said, Bobby Robson knew that only six of us had turned up, but when it got to number one they were all there saying, it is our song. They all got a gold disc. We weren't really aware of the furore and everything going on back here, because we were in Italy playing our games. When we had that live link up with the television and saw Trafalgar Square, we saw how huge it all was. But when you are at a World Cup you don't really know, until we saw that link up, and then came home and saw it for ourselves. That was a special World Cup, 1990, particularly for the people back at home.

JS: Brilliant, John. Great stories. We could talk for a lot longer, but we are out of time. Thank you so much for coming in.

JB: It has been amazing. I appreciate it. Thank you.