The Jeff Stelling Show: Matt Le Tissier on Saints Spygate, England & Sky Exit

Full Transcript

JS: Hello, my guest today on the Jeff Stelling Show with OLBG is the scorer of some of the greatest goals ever seen, certainly some of the greatest goals I've ever seen. He was a one‑club man whose performances for that one club earned him the nickname of ‘Le God’. Since he retired, he hasn't been shy about voicing his opinions, and not just about football, so this should be very interesting indeed. Matt Le Tissier, thanks for joining me.

MLT: Lovely to see you, Jeff.

JS: Matt, let's talk about your career. Obviously, you came over from the Channel Islands...

MLT: I did, Guernsey.

JS: Is there a rivalry by any chance? You could have been a cricketer, couldn't you? Because I've got a photograph here, the first of the photographs we're showing you, the Schools Cricket Association president presenting you a trophy for outstanding performances in the third‑year cricket league. Now, I mean, did you ever seriously consider being a cricketer rather than a footballer?

MLT: I would only have seriously considered it if I hadn't made it as a footballer. Football was always my first choice, but I was a pretty good cricketer, and I had a good eye for a ball, and so I scored a lot of runs as a kid. I also kept wicket, which I loved. I loved keeping wicket. I could bowl as well, but I preferred to keep wicket. So, if I hadn't have, if I'd have got released by Southampton after my apprenticeship at 18, that was my next try, to be a cricketer. I've just grew up in such a massive sporting family, my entire life has kind of been in sport, and it's not just football and cricket, so you know.

JS: You're one of these intensely irritating people who's good at everything. Good golfer.

MLT: Well, golf took a long time to get good at. Like, golf took... that was the most frustrating sport I ever took up in my life. So that took me the longest time to get decent at. So, I played tennis to a decent level, you know. I took up snooker, got an 88 break at snooker, and all those things are kind of... table tennis I was quite good at, and all those things I got good at quite quick. Golf was the one that took a heck of a long time, a lot of patience to get reasonably good.

JS: I'm surprised you could find the time for golf, because all of those hours that you put in doing extra training at Southampton in the afternoons…

MLT: Well, actually, I didn't play a lot of golf for the first kind of 10 years of my career. It was only kind of towards the back end of my career that I started actually playing a bit more regularly, and I kind of really fell in love with golf, but I was quite football‑focused for the first 10 years of my career.

JS: Yeah, look, we've got a photograph of you here in your England kit, okay.

MLT: You must have been quick to get that picture. 

JS: Well, I was gonna say, you know, it's a bit of a collector's item, because there weren't that many... eight England caps. If you'd have played for another country, if you'd played for the French, for example, do you think you could have added a zero onto the number of caps?

MLT: Yeah, quite possibly. I think there was definitely, back in the 90s, there was definitely a maverick‑type player in England, there was definitely a question mark against those kind of players, and I think other countries looked upon those kind of players differently. So, I think I would have probably had a lot more chances had I been French or Brazilian, because that kind of style of play that I played was kind of more... I kind of didn't conform to the... which you won't be surprised to hear, I didn't really conform to the 4‑4‑2 formation that you know everybody liked to play back in the 90s. And so I was always kind of in a position where the manager didn't really know where to play me in a team, and they would kind of just fit me into a position and then see what I could do from there. So yeah, I think, I think had I not chosen to play for England, I would have probably got more caps elsewhere.

JS: Could you have played for anybody else?

MLT: I could have played for any of the home nations, because coming from the Channel Islands at the time, you actually had a choice, because you actually weren't classified as English as such. So, I think the rules have changed now. Actually, somebody told me a couple of years ago that now the Channel Islands have come under England for football purposes, so the English have claimed any decent footballers that come, so Alex Scott, for example, down at Bournemouth. But it was different in my day, so yeah, I could have chosen Wales. Actually Bobby Gould was manager of Wales, and they tried to tempt me to go and play for them.

JS: Did you think about it?

MLT: Not really. No, because as a kid growing up, all I wanted to do was play for England, and I'd already played for England at the time. I played in five friendlies. Because I hadn't played a competitive game, it meant that I could still change allegiance, but I personally, I don't think that rule's right. I think once you've played for your country, you shouldn't be able to change again. But nonetheless, all I wanted to do as a kid was play for England, and I wanted to go and play a World Cup for England and all that stuff. So it never really kind of crossed my mind. So I kind of dismissed it quite quickly, but just my luck, just after I dismissed it pretty quickly, Saints got drawn at Cardiff away in the League Cup, so you can imagine the abuse that I got that night from the Cardiff fans for turning down their country. But luckily we won three‑nil that night, and I scored two of them.

JS: Look, it must have been frustrating because when I was looking through players and the number of England caps they got on Wikipedia, and it only goes down to those who got 10 caps... you don’t even get mentioned, I think you got eight, didn't you? I looked at some of those, and not being disrespectful to these players by mentioning them, but Harry Winks got 10 England caps, Tom Cleverley 13, Carlton Palmer 18. You know, and in 1998 when you didn't go to the World Cup, David Batty and Rob Lee both did. That must be so frustrating for you.

MLT: It was frustrating not to get more caps. When I look back actually you see the amount of good English forwards that we had back in those days, and the amount of good English forwards that were scoring lots of goals back in those days, it was a lot harder, I think, to get into an England squad than it is in this day and age. 

So, you know, we're going to go to the World Cup this year, and the top striker in the Premier League who's English I think has got 14 goals. Ollie Watkins has got 14. Now back in our day, you know, you had Alan Shearer, who was in the 20s or 30s, you had Andy Cole regularly in the 20s, you had Les Ferdinand regularly in the 20s, Ian Wright regularly in the 20s, Robbie Fowler regularly in the 20s, like you had a lot of good... and I've probably missed some out there. There were also, you know, people like Gazza, Teddy Sheringham springs to mind, all players that could play in positions where I could play as well. And so when I look back, I actually think the competition was a lot fiercer back then, but I felt like certainly during 93‑94, 94‑95 seasons when, you know, I'd scored 25 goals in the league in 1994 in a team that stayed up by a point. The following season I scored 30 in all competitions, and it was during that season that I actually got dropped from an England squad, during that season when I'd scored 30. Now, if you look at today's football and go, is there a midfielder who's scoring 30 goals who wouldn't get in an England squad, you'd laugh your head off. But I just got, you know, just got discarded, and I think there was a little bit of, you know, the small‑club mentality then as well. I think if you played for a smaller club, you were less likely to get picked in the England squads. I don't think there was any question about that.

JS: Do you think that's less the case these days?

MLT: I think it is because you've got less to choose from, so I think it's easier. Back when the Premier League started, like over 90 percent of the players were British, you know, and the majority of them were English. I think in this day and age you're now looking at something like 30 percent, so there's a lot less talent to pick from, so it's a lot easier to get into the England squad.

JS: Because you were scoring 30 goals in the days when it was permissible to kick lumps out of you.

MLT: Yeah, it was a bit different. Yeah, and also we weren't playing on bowling greens for the whole season as well. You know, the standard of pitches is something that's improved dramatically since I retired, and yeah, the forwards get a lot more protection these days than what we did in our day. But you know, I wouldn't change it, I wouldn't change the era that I played in for all the riches today, for all the pitches they play on. I had such a great time in the 80s and 90s playing football, it was amazing.

JS: Yeah, well, you had a bit of protection. The first Premier League game that you played in, I saw that in the Saints team that day were Terry Hurlock and David Speedie, Franny Benali, Jason Dodd, Ian Dowie was on the bench, so you had a bit of protection.

MLT: Oh yeah, we just... it wasn't any protection from the referees, that's what I would have preferred. But yeah, I had teammates who had my back, you know. Jimmy Case was the first one in when I, when I first got in the team. Jimmy was brilliant, you know he was a proper minder, like if anybody tried kicking the young lads in the team, he was always taking a note and making sure that they got a reminder themselves not to be doing that to the young players in the team.

JS: Who was your most fearsome opponent?

MLT: Oh, Stuart Pearce. Very early on, my second ever game, my second ever start for Saints, was against Forest, and I didn't really know Stuart at that point. He wasn't obviously the household name that he is now. I just remember standing out on the right wing as we're about to kick off, and I took a look down the left‑hand side of the opposition, as you do, to weigh up the opposition, and I saw him, and I thought, whoa, look at the size of his thighs, they're massive, he's gonna kick the crap out of me. And he did for a few years. I was quite frightened. He's probably one of the reasons why I actually preferred to move inside a little bit and not be a right‑winger. I didn't like being kicked by the left‑back, so it wasn't much fun.

JS: Brilliant. Well, look, I mentioned your collection of goals, and you know, here you are... I always thought your celebrations, considering the quality of goals (we can see on that picture), were pretty understated, to be honest. I mean, you weren't going to be running around the sort of perimeter of the pitch, were you?

MLT: No, not really. I liked to save my energy for when it was most needed, and celebrations were just a waste of energy, quite frankly. 

JS: You must have favourite goals. Come on, favourite goals?

MLT: So, well, my favourite ever goal, which isn't my best goal, but my favourite ever goal was my last ever goal for Saints, which was the last ever goal at the old stadium. So, I mean, that was just the best fairy tale I could have imagined to send off the old Dell, when in the final game of the season I came on as a sub with about 15 minutes to go, drawing two‑all against Arsenal, and came on, scored the winner in the 88th minute, I think it was. And that turned out to be my last ever goal for Saints, and it wasn't, it wasn't an ordinary one, it was like left foot, half‑volley, swivel, like decent finish, but just the fact that it was kind of so late in the game, the winning goal, the last ever league goal to be scored at that stadium, was just amazing. So nobody can ever take that away from me.

JS: Yeah, so that was your most memorable. But what was your favourite?

MLT: So my best goal was against Blackburn. I mean it was the only goal that won Goal of the Season, for a start, which I thought was a bit harsh. I thought the Newcastle goal should have...

JS: Yeah, was that the Newcastle goal with the back‑heel and the flick?

MLT: Yeah, the back‑heel and the flick over the two defenders. It was quite a good goal. And the only reason I didn't mind coming runner‑up that season is because the bloke that won it was my mate, so Rodney Wallace, who I'd played with at Saints for a few years, and he was one of my favourite players to play with at Saints, brilliant footballer, probably one of the best players not to win an England cap, in my opinion. And he won it for a goal he scored for Leeds, where he picked the ball up on the halfway line, dribbled past about three or four players, and just curled it in the corner. It was a pretty good goal as well, so I didn't mind losing that one. But yeah, the Blackburn goal, and my mate Tim Flowers was in goal for Blackburn that day, which made it pretty special, especially as he'd said to me when he left Saints that I'd never score past him, so to put one past him from 35 yards in his own backyard was pretty special.

JS: Did you have a word with him?

MLT: I might have had a word with him afterwards, but he was always like... he always wanted the last word in everything, and I'd actually scored against him the previous season with a penalty, and I'd reminded him about what he'd said, and he went, "Well, penalties don't count." So I was like, "All right." So the following season I did that against him. We lost the game 3‑2, but I did remind him again. I said, "What about that one?" And he turned round, he went, "How many points did you get today?" And he just walked off, so I don't bother talking to him anymore quite frankly.

JS: One of the most memorable ones for me was when you chipped Peter Schmeichel because I mean he is a man‑mountain, you know. He's that man‑mountain. How do you chip him?

MLT: Well, it was interesting actually, because I'd been watching the Monday night Newcastle game on the Monday Night Football five days before, and Philippe Albert chipped him from quite a long way out, and Newcastle beat them 5‑0 on the Monday. So we're playing them on the following weekend, and it just stuck in my mind that, you know, he was an awful long way out of his goal there. And so when I got in that position, where I had a little dribble past Brian McClair, I think it was, and I got to the edge of the box, and you know, I had defenders in my way, the only option I had was to try and chip it. But I hadn't actually... I just gambled that Peter was going to be off his line again. I didn't actually look to see if he was off his line. So sometimes you've just got to take a chance in life, and I took the chance that he was off his line. Thankfully for me, he was, because if he'd been stood on his line I'd have looked a bit stupid trying to chip someone who's on his line. But it worked, and yeah, we ended up winning that game 6‑3, which was pretty cool.

JS: Brilliant. How many goals did you score?

MLT: In total for Saints, 209, although it should have been 210. The dodgey goals panel took a goal off me. In fact, there were two that they took off me, one against Crystal Palace, which they took off without me knowing. They took it off later on. I didn't realise, it was only actually... I was at an awards ceremony when the Premier League did an awards thing for everyone who'd scored 100 Premier League goals, and they gave out the awards and said how many Premier League goals you'd scored, and they said mine, and they said, "And Matt Le Tissier got 100 Premier League goals." Now, at this point, I've got 101. Like, I know that I've scored 101, so I actually went, "No, no, I've got 101," and they were like, "No, no." They went and looked back and they'd taken one off me for a cross that the goalkeeper let slip through his hands and went in, and they put it down as an own goal to the goalkeeper, so I was like, that's a bit harsh. But I also scored a goal against Wimbledon straight from a corner and it took like the slightest flick off Robbie Earle's head and went in, but you know I was shooting and it was going in anyway, but they gave it as an own goal, so really it should be 211, but I'll let it pass.

JS: Do you remember every single one of those 211?

MLT: Pretty much, yeah, pretty much. There's a couple really early on that I scored in the... it was called the... it was like the third cup competition, because we were banned from Europe. It was like the Simod Cup, or something like that, Full Members Cup, one of those. I scored a couple in my first season against Hull, and they're really vague. I've got really vague memories. I can remember kind of one of them vaguely, but then the second one I've got... I can't think about it. I can't think what it was, because I never saw it back on the telly. So most of the things that you kind of do, I used to watch my goals back a lot on the telly.

It's good. I would suggest to every goalscorer, especially if you're going through a bit of a rough patch, go and watch yourself scoring goals, because it just embeds that belief in you that you can do it, and so I used to do that quite a lot. So they were kind of all in there, not because I specifically remember them on the day, but because I've watched them so often, and it just kind of gets ingrained.

JS: We'll come back to your career and your goals shortly. It's interesting the last one was against an Arsenal side, because obviously Arsenal, being crowned champions, are being criticised in a lot of circles by the fact they've scored so many from set plays, and maybe they're not as expansive. Does that matter? Does that offend you?

MLT: Not at all. The team that gets the most points at the end of the season deserves to be Premier League champions. It's as simple as that, really. You know, don't get me wrong, I love watching great football and expansive stuff, but if it works and it gets you the points, there's lots of different ways to skin a cat. There's not just one way to win a football match, and if you can do that consistently, which they have done over the course of a season and have been the best team through the season, then fair play to them.

JS: And what's the view of Mikel Arteta?

MLT: What's my view of him? I mean, he's been, I think he's been quite fortunate to have had the support of the board for so long, to go kind of six years at a club, or five years. He won the FA Cup early on. To go that many years and not win a trophy is quite unusual in this day and age. So I think he's got the board to thank for the support that they've given him, because they've given him a lot of money to spend, and eventually, you know, it just goes to show that sometimes maybe the boards of today, just sticking with somebody for a little bit of time and giving them a bit of time to build, might just pay dividends in the end.

JS: So, Tiss, let's talk about what happened after your career when, you know, you've never been short of an opinion. I've known you for a long time, you've never been short of an opinion, and you're not afraid to express them, and you know that we don't necessarily, or even often, agree on those opinions. But I mean, at one stage you were, if you like, you stood down, or were stood down, from your role at Southampton.

MLT: I stood down there, yeah.

JS: And I know you lost a lot of jobs, a lot of paid work, for your views. How harshly treated do you think you've been?

MLT: Yeah, I think I was treated quite harshly, quite frankly. I think in this country it's important that we have freedom of speech, and I think it's also important that we can actually agree to disagree on things and still get along with people, and that's what me and you have done, you know. We, as you say, we've disagreed on lots of things, but we've never fallen out about it, you know, and I think that's an art that's been lost in this country. It became very divisive around 2020 and I think that was done deliberately by the government, and I wasn't shy in saying that on my social media, and as you say, it cost me quite a few things. But I think some things are more important than picking up your pay cheque, and I wanted a better country and a better future for my children, and I was prepared to stand up and fight for that, and I don't have any regrets about doing it.

JS: How tough was it for you and your family?

MLT: I think it was tougher for my family. It was much tougher for my family. I had spent, you know, 16 years playing in football stadiums where the opposing fans were not very nice to me in terms of the songs that they would sing at me, but I took that as a compliment because they only sing about you if they think you're a threat to them, so I kind of realised that early on. So I got quite a thick skin from being a footballer, and you know, the criticism that came my way, that didn't really bother me. I'm comfortable in my views, you know, I'm also comfortable that if I feel I've got something wrong, I will apologise for it, and I think that's also quite important, and I did that on a couple of occasions. But of course, you know, there's only certain people that are allowed to apologise and it be forgotten. Some people, you know, if you're on the wrong side of the political fence, that's it, you're done for life. But as I said, I've got no regrets. I did what I thought was right, I did what I thought was best for my family and the future of my children.

JS: What did Angela think about it, or did she ever think, you know, "Matt, just stay quiet for a while"?

MLT: Oh yeah, there were quite a few times where she just advised me that sometimes it's better not to say anything at all.

JS: Did you ever think at that stage, you know, it's a good job you lived in Southampton, because we mentioned the fact they regard you, you know, as Le God down there. It's probably the one place you could do or say anything and nobody would care.

MLT: No, I still upset a few Saints fans. There's still a few Saints fans that don't like me having a different opinion to them, and you know, as I said, that's fine. I don't mind people having a different opinion, but you don't have to fall out about it, you know. And I think that's one of the things that's wrong in the world today, is that people should be allowed to have differing opinions, because at the end of the day, who knows who's right and wrong, you know? Who's the arbiter of the truth?

JS: Yeah, I mean, did you view yourself as a sort of victim of, I think, what's known as cancel culture?

MLT: I don't really kind of want ever to be described as a victim, that's not who I am. I do what I do, I say what I say because I believe in what I say, and if the consequences of that is that I lose a few jobs and a few quid in my bank account, then so be it, I'll just adapt, as I have done with my life in the years since I left Sky.

JS: I just wonder, you know, you're very level‑headed, you know, and even‑minded about it, if you like, but the frustration when the things that you say on social media sometimes gain such negative headlines, rightly or wrongly, and the things... I know you, you've been out delivering meals and things like that to the homeless, and that never makes a headline.

MLT: No, and there was a lot of us actually from our Ex‑Southampton Players' organisation. When we were in lockdowns and all that kind of stuff, a lot of us went and volunteered in the local FareShare, and we did that for quite a long time. And I've always, tried to help people less fortunate than me in the local community, and that's what our Ex‑Southampton Players Association is all about. We go and play football matches around the county, we do golf days, we raise a lot of money, and we always pour it back into local charities, and I think it's important in the position that we're in, the lucky position that we're in as footballers, that we're able to give back to that local community, because we are in a very fortunate position. Just because we were good at football, we got well paid, and there's always people less fortunate than yourselves, and if you can't give a little bit back, then there's something wrong.

JS: Now, look, you've got very strong views, very strong political views. Have you ever been asked, you know, to become more involved in politics, maybe stand to become Matt Le Tissier MP?

MLT: A couple of people have said to do that actually in the last few years, pretty consistently, but it's not something that I would consider, because I actually don't think that the system that we live under is particularly fair. I think if the system changed and we lived under a system where it was a little bit more democratic, and it was more... there's a system in Switzerland which is direct democracy, where the people get more of a say in things, so every few months they have referendums on the important issues, and the people are allowed to decide. I think that's a far fairer way of doing things. I don't think our system... our system is basically set up for it never to ever change, and to only ever have, you know, a couple of parties that are all owned by the same people, in my opinion. So, unless that changes, then no, I wouldn't get involved in politics. 

JS: You're not tempted to try and change it from the inside?

MLT: No, I don't think it can be.

JS: Obviously, you're back involved with Southampton, which we'll come to again in a moment or two. What about television or mainstream TV? Do you ever expect to get back on mainstream TV?

MLT: No, I don't. I don't really want to, to be honest. It was interesting, I had a conversation with my agent the day that I got sacked from Sky. I rang my agent and said, "Oh, this has just happened," and he was like, "Don't worry," he said, "You'll be fine, I've got good contacts here, we'll get you another job somewhere else in television." And I said to him on that day, I said, "Richard, I will never work on mainstream television in this country again," and he was like, "Don't be daft." I said, "I know, I feel it, I know what's happened, and I'm fine with that. It's okay." 

So I did do a bit of work on the TV, but not in this country. So I was working for a company called Mola, who were covering the Bundesliga and the Dutch league, which I actually really enjoyed, because I got to learn about different leagues that I would never have done, and I, you know me, I like my stats, and I like my research, and I went and I did, I worked hours on learning who the players were, all the stats about them, and I went in and was working with Denpaul, Paul Dickov. And I loved it, and it was really nice just to kind of go and learn about a different league, and it kept my brain kind of focused on something else, apart from all the rubbish that was going on in our world.

JS: Yeah, I mean, I understand why you wouldn't want to get back into mainstream TV, because, I mean, let's be honest, you could never work with such a talented presenter again, because on Soccer Saturday we had an absolutely blindingly brilliant time, and it's very hard to replicate anywhere else.

MLT: I think you're absolutely right. The amount of people that come up to me and just say, "Wow, we just had so much fun watching you guys on Soccer Saturday, and it's not the same anymore."

JS: Yeah.

MLT: It's such a shame.

JS: What I always tell them is we had so much fun doing it as well.

MLT: Exactly right.

JS: I mentioned that obviously you're back involved at Southampton now. Did you ever expect to have an involvement with a football club? Was there a time when you thought this is another element of my life that's... it's not going to happen again?

MLT: No, not really, because I was never, I was never ostracised at Southampton Football Club. In fact, the only time I was kind of slightly ostracised was before Covid, when Nicola Cortese was there, and he was kind of not really very welcoming to any of the ex‑players, or any of that stuff. But during the other periods, I stood down from my role as ambassador because I didn't want the club to take any stick for obviously the opinions that I was giving on social media, so I stood down to protect them from that, and during all that time the club have always been brilliant with me. They always gave me tickets for the games and they've never once said you're not welcome here. So I never ever thought that I'd been ostracised in any way. So it's been nice that, you know, things have calmed down a little bit. There was a new owner that came in, and Dragan, obviously, has got his own media company, and he's very keen on free speech, and I've had a nice relationship with the CEO. He's been very welcoming to me ever since the day that Phil Parsons came into the club. He wanted to come and say hello, wanted to get to know me, and they've got to know me over the years, and, like you said, they've, I think, come to realise that, you know, maybe the media portrayal of me isn't really me, and I am actually quite level‑headed and sensible, and felt like I could help the club in different ways at the football club, and yeah, that's how it's come about.

JS: Yeah, so what's your role there at the moment?

MLT: So I'm officially advisor to the board. That's my official title. I also do other stuff, so we do a podcast, which you kindly came on, The Early Doors Podcast, which I do with Tom Deacon, which now encompasses part of the role, that's all part of my role. Also working with sponsors at the club, you know, so I've done some work with Midnight and hosted golf days for corporate sponsors at the golf course, that kind of thing, as well as advising on football matters.

JS: Let's talk about what's happening in the EFL and ‘Spygate’, as they call it. What's your reaction to what has happened and the punishment on your club?

MLT: Well, firstly, obviously the club have cooperated fully with the investigation. They have admitted to the three charges that were levelled at them, and that basically meant that they were going to get punished. I think we all realised that and we all knew there was a punishment coming, and I don't think any Saints fan believes there shouldn't be a punishment of some sort. 

I think the only question really was the proportionality. I certainly felt like the punishment seemed to be a little bit severe for the crime that was committed. That was kind of my initial reaction, but if you break the rules, then you have to suffer the consequences of that. 

I know there's an appeal going on at the moment, but I think you've got to hold your hands up in situations like that when you've broken the rules and say, ‘okay, fair, it's a fair cop’, and you have to take on the chin what the punishment is that's meted out. Unfortunately, that means we've been kicked out of the playoffs and lost the chance to go up to the Premier League.

The thing for me is that I feel for the players. For some of those players, it might have been the only chance they'll ever get to go and play in the Premier League, which is a big thing to have taken away from them for something that's not their fault. That's something I feel quite strongly about. The players, I feel for them, and I feel for the fans who spent loads of money to go up and support the team at Middlesbrough. Another 30,000 turned up at St Mary's last Tuesday, and it was all wasted money because it was for nothing in the end. So I feel for the fans, but we just have to take it on the chin and get on with it.

JS: Reputationally, how much damage has this done to the football club?

MLT: Huge and I think that's something that will obviously have to be addressed and worked on. The club has to go about their business and do the right thing going forward to try to repair that reputation, but it will be a long road. It's not something that'll be fixed very easily, and it's something the club will have to sit down and think very hard about in terms of how they react to this situation.

Then you've got the players who probably feel very hard done by, and it'll be interesting to see how they react to the situation as well in terms of what happens going forward next season, what mentality they perhaps take into the following season. I've spoken to one former player, I'm not going to name him, but he was very angry with what had happened, and his reaction was, if I was a player at that football club, I couldn't stay there. So you wonder what the mentality of the players will be like, and we can only gauge that going forward after what happens.

JS: So you think that players could be so upset by events that they might not want to be associated with Southampton?

MLT: I mean, there's a whole raft of possibilities as to how players will feel, and I'm guessing they won't all feel the same. That's something the club will have to assess over the next few weeks and then obviously come up with a plan to go forward next season and actually try and get promoted again. Perhaps we try and use the siege mentality. We've seen many managers use those tactics before, so we'll come up with a plan going forward.

JS: I mean, every club you visit, you realise, of course, all the fans are going to have binoculars, all of them.

MLT: Of course. That's to be expected. That's football banter, and you just have to take it on the chin, get on with it, and try and do the right thing going forward and restore our reputation.

JS: Southampton are the ones who have been caught. They put their hands up to admitting three occasions when they spied on other clubs, but is this exceptional? Do you think spying on other football clubs is widespread in the game?

MLT: I've got no evidence of that. I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen. There’s always ways and means of trying to find out information from other clubs that you're playing against. I've known managers in the past who have asked players if they would phone their mates at other clubs and try and get information out of them, so I definitely know that went on.

It was really odd because in my day we had two training grounds at Southampton. The first six years were at the university campus, which you know very well, and anybody could come and just watch there. There were no secrets. Then we moved to our own training ground, and there was still no security on the gates, any member of the public could just walk in and watch us train, so by that token, people from other football clubs could come in and watch us train as well. It just wasn't really a thing back in those days. It really is marginal gains, and I don't really see the point in it.

JS: I was going to ask you, what can you glean from a boy standing behind a tree with an iPhone? What are the benefits?

MLT: I mean, there's very little you can really glean. You might be able to see some set pieces taking place that you might not have seen them do in a game. If that was the case, that's the only real thing I can kind of come up with. Maybe if there was a fitness doubt on a player and you saw him training, I don't know, but it is tiny marginal gains, and it really isn't worth the risk, if you ask me.

JS: Yeah, as an ex-player and a legend at the football club yourself, how would you describe your emotions? Were you embarrassed by it?

MLT: Yeah, I mean, it's embarrassing. There's no two ways about that. For me now, the important thing is how we go about restoring our reputation, and I think that's got to be the main focus after all this.

JS: Yeah, we'll come on to broader football matters in a moment. Let's just focus on Southampton for a moment or two. I mean, obviously we've touched on what's happened this season. It's hard to see a club like Southampton at the second level of English football, isn't it, because the set‑up there is that of a Premier League club?

MLT: Oh, definitely. Everything is in place for it to be a Premier League club. I mean, the training ground, I don't know when the last time you went there was, but it's just... it's a different world away from when I was there. The facilities there that they've got now with the medical stuff and the rehabilitation stuff, there is no excuse for a footballer to not be the best he can possibly be now, with everything that's available to them. And all the stats, this is one of the amazing things that kind of blew my mind a little bit. When I went into the training ground a few weeks ago and I sat down with the data analysts and they went through, you know, the level of detail that is on the players... it's not just how far they run in games, you know, like they wear the monitors to tell you how far they run, but it's so much more than that. So they'll get detailed stats on the amount of sprints that they made, you know, the amount of times they went at 80 percent, and it was just like, wow, these stats are just... there's no way you can hide as a footballer now.

JS: Well, I was gonna say, you know, how would you have felt if the words "data analyst, sports scientist" in your day had the influence that they do now?

MLT: Yeah, I'd like to think that for all the deficiencies in the data that may have come up about my game, I'd like to think that the one important one, which is the most important thing in football, is about scoring goals and creating goals, and I would like to think that my stats in that department would have overridden perhaps the lack of kilometres that I may have run during the game.

JS: Do you think sports scientists have got too much say these days? Remember Enzo Maresca, when he was leaving Chelsea, saying he would want to pick a certain team, but the sports scientists had said, well, you can't play him, or you can't play him, or you need to take him off after 60 minutes…

MLT: I think it's important for me that the manager is the one that has the final say. It's okay to take this information on board, but I'm not sure you should give them enough power to be able to go, "You can't play him." I think that's something the manager and the player themselves have to come to terms with, because I think you've also got to take into account the mentality of the player, because some players can play with a knock and some players refuse to play with a knock. It all depends on the mentality of that player. So everyone's a little bit different, and you know, the data will tell you one thing, but what it won't tell you is what's in the player's head.

JS: Looking at Southampton now, you know, I was going to say from afar, but actually it's not from that big a distance. But Southampton, over the years, have always been renowned as a club that's produced fantastic home‑grown talent. I mean, obviously you're one, Theo Walcott, Alex Oxlade‑Chamberlain, Gareth Bale, Luke Shaw, Alan Shearer, Bridgie, Adam Lallana...

MLT: Yeah.

JS: So what's going wrong now? Because you look at the squad now and you don't see that home‑grown talent.

MLT: Yeah, it's been a barren few years, and I think football does go in cycles, you know. You'll get those years where you'll have a few come through, and then it's just natural that you can't keep doing that every single season. There's going to be barren spells, and you've just got to keep working at it, keep making sure that you're putting yourself in the right places to see these kids, and to hopefully put the right coaches in place, so that when they do come into the club, they flourish and they grow as a player. And I think, you know, obviously the last one was probably Tyler Dibling, who, you know, we ended up selling for 35, 40 million quid, I think, something like that. So there has been the occasional one, but not the numbers that we were famous for, really.

JS: Yeah, I think Adam Lallana's in charge of the under‑21s. Positive move in your view.

MLT: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think he's got a real thirst for knowledge in the game, and I think he's also had that experience in a stellar career. You know, when you think of where he's played and got to the great heights of Champions League and international football, if you can't learn under somebody like that as an under‑21 player, there's something quite wrong.

JS: I mean, just thinking about Adam's involvement there, do you, or have you ever, wanted to be more hands‑on, more involved in the coaching side, with your experience?

MLT: Yeah, I've never really found coaching that interesting, to be honest. However, I think there are some things that I could possibly help with. But I'm really surprised actually that nobody has ever asked me to go and coach penalties.

JS: Yeah.

MLT: Nobody's ever done that, not at Southampton.

JS: Yeah?

MLT: The only person that did was Dave Jones, who was on the board at Oxford at the time, and if you remember that period... and he came to me and said, "Look, we've missed our last seven or eight penalties," he said, "Can you come and have a word with the lads?" And so I did. I went down to Oxford's training ground, and I went through my technique and what I felt like was the most successful way you could take penalties, and that was on a Friday morning. And I remember being on Soccer Saturday the following day, and about 20 minutes of the game had gone, I think, and it went to Oxford, and they'd just missed a penalty, and I remember thinking, "Oh no, well, what have I done." But the one thing that I would never do was hit the ball down the middle. I took 48 penalties, not one went down the middle, always in either corner, and I told the lads this. And then when I rang Dave up after we came off the show, I went, "What happened?" He went, "You're not going to believe this, he hit it down the middle, and the goalkeeper stood there, saved it," and I was like, "Thank God for that, it wasn't me, he just didn't take it, he ignored my advice." I was like, why did I bother going down there?

JS: Penalty‑taking is such a big part of the game these days, at every level. I spoke to Stuart Pearce, you know, on this show a couple of weeks ago, and he said he could not believe that in his playing days for England, basically there was no analysis done on penalties, and so on and so forth, and it just seems that it was disregarded, and yet we know in cup competitions, in particular, time and time and time again, it comes down to penalty kicks.

MLT: And that was one of the reasons why I was a little bit surprised that I got left out of Euro 96 and France 98, because my penalty record at that point was pretty good. And obviously, you know, England as a nation have not been particularly good at penalties, and so yeah, it was strange that, even for a squad of 22 players, or 23, I can't remember what it was back then, that you wouldn't pick somebody who you could almost guarantee, if it went to a penalty shootout... because in a squad of 22 or 23 in a World Cup, there's going to be five or six players who probably aren't going to get a minute's football, so why not have one of them as a specialist who could come on and take a penalty in a shootout at a crucial time that you could rely on?

JS: What was the record? Was it 47...

MLT: Out of 48.

JS: You want to remind us about Mark Crossley? Nobody asks about the 47 you scored, do they?

MLT: No, very rarely. They only ask...

JS: About the one that was saved.

MLT: Yeah, they never, they never want to talk about the one on the last day of the season at Upton Park, where I needed to score it, because otherwise we were going to get relegated.

JS: Oh, go on then. Well, tell us about it.

MLT: So yeah, we were... I think we were losing 2‑1 at the time, and we were going down if we didn't get something, and we got the penalty. And it was kind of... I could almost feel that real pressure. Now, luckily, it was at the end where all the Saints fans were behind the goal, so it made it a bit easier, felt like a bit...

JS: Does that help? I've always wondered, does that really help to have your own fans behind the goal?

MLT: Yeah, it obviously did, because it still sticks in my mind to this day. And so I managed to stick it past Ludek Miklosko, I think he was in goal that day. We ended up drawing 3‑all and staying up on the last day of the season, when, like, four or five weeks earlier, we were dead and buried. I think we went to Norwich and won 5‑4, and Ken Monkou scored a header in the last minute, and as it turned out, that goal saved us from being relegated, you know, a 90th‑minute winner at Carrow Road to go 5‑4 up, which was amazing. And yeah, so, but that penalty, that was proper pressure.

JS: I mean, you never looked as if you felt the pressure. Did you feel the pressure when you took penalties, Matt? Apart from that occasion.

MLT: You know what, there were only a couple of times where I felt particularly nervous. I mean, that, there was a lot of pressure on that one, so there was a little bit more on it, so I can remember that one. I took a penalty against Tim Flowers, which I spoke to you about earlier. Now Tim had been my teammate for, like, the previous five years, and he knew where my favourite corner was, and I'd taken a lot against him in training, and he'd saved quite a few, so I was a bit nervous taking one against him. 

And the other time, I took one against Bruce Grobbelaar. This is amazing how football works, right. So, about two years before this game, me and Bruce had both played for a Football League XI in a game in Ireland, so it was like a mess‑about charity match. And so in the warm‑up we're messing about and having shots at Bruce, and he went, "Come and take a few penalties." So I thought, "Okay, yeah." So I put the penalty down, and I took this penalty, and he went the right way and he saved it, right, first penalty I'd ever taken against him. So I was like, "Give me that ball." So I put another one down, I went the other way, and he saved that one as well, right. So I'd taken two against him and he'd saved two, and I was like, oh, okay. So anyway, fast‑forward two years later, we're playing Liverpool at the Dell, Alan Ball's first home game in charge, and about 20 minutes gone, we get a penalty. I go and put the ball on the penalty spot, and in my head I go, "Oh my God, those penalties I took against him back in Ireland two years ago," like they immediately went into my head. I was like, "Whoa, get those thoughts out." And so I stepped up and I thought, I'm gonna have to hit this a bit harder. And I actually... if you remember it, the ball goes so high, it was the highest I ever hit a penalty, it hits the inside of the post and goes in. And you see my face, the camera pans to my face after I score, and I turn around, and all you see my face do is go like that, because I thought I'd missed it. I'd hit it that hard because of what happened. So that also sticks in my mind. But it's amazing how your mind plays tricks on you.

JS: Yeah. Who's the modern‑day Matt Le Tissier? Is there a player out there that you ever think resembles you at all?

MLT: I get asked this question quite a bit, and I find it really hard to actually think of somebody who kind of plays the way that I did. There are more athletes nowadays, I would say. Actually, the one, probably without the volume of goals, but when Jack Grealish was at Aston Villa, he kind of had that role in the team where everything went through him, and he could wander and go wherever he wanted on the pitch, and he would make things happen. I think the one criticism I'd have with Jack was that he didn't score enough goals for the ability that he had, and he's the one player that I think, yeah, I could see a bit of a comparison there from his Villa days, not necessarily when he went to Man City.

JS: Yeah.

MLT: The other one that I loved to watch play, just before that, who I thought was just a fantastic footballer, and he kind of... he had one of the best first touches I've ever seen, and whenever the ball came to him in a football match it was like the entire game slowed down because he was in possession of the ball, and that was Dimitar Berbatov. I loved watching him play. He was just so relaxed in everything he did.

JS: Scored a goal that you would have loved, wouldn't he? Charlton.

MLT: Yeah, it was a brilliant goal. So I loved watching him, and people say they kind of see a little bit of myself in him, in the way that he could control the pace of the game. And luckily, about six weeks ago Southampton Legends played Man United Legends, and he was playing for the Man United team, and I thought, oh, this is brilliant, I get to meet him, because I'd never met him before. And it was lovely, I stood in the tunnel at St Mary's, and he came in and he came and gave me the biggest hug, and he went, "Legend, what a player you were!" And I was like, "Oh my God, I was just about to say the same thing to you," and it was a lovely, lovely moment. So I had my picture taken with him, I was quite chuffed with that.

JS: Yeah, I was lucky enough to be at Charlton that day. Yeah, I mean, it just lives so clearly in my mind. It was a sensational goal. If you were playing these days, people would frown on your test, because you'd shoot from outside the box, and it seems these days that it's almost not allowed unless it's a free kick.

MLT: I know, and this is one of the things I'm trying to impress on the Southampton players, because I think it is the classic case: if you don't buy a ticket, you can't win the lottery. If you're not shooting, anything can happen. You have a shot from 25 yards, I've seen goals this season where someone's had a shot from 25 yards, it might be going wide, it's taken a deflection off the defender, goalkeeper's wrong‑footed, it goes in, the goalkeeper could spill it... just shoot, have shots. And the other thing that I think people don't understand about that is that the fans want to see you have intent to try and score a goal. They don't want to see you passing the ball around 40 times around the 18‑yard box, they want to see some intent, and when you do that, and you have those shots, it builds momentum in the game, because the fans see you trying to score, they get, they get up a little bit, you know, and it builds pressure on the opposition. And for all the pass, pass, pass, pass, score the perfect goal, nothing creates pressure like having shots on the opposition goal. And there are times when I'm pulling my hair out, and the boys are 25 yards out from goal and they just want to pass it out to the winger. I'm like, have a shot. But we'll try and instil that into Saints a bit more next season.

JS: Yeah. Do you think the pass, pass, pass, try and score the perfect goal, is that part of the legacy of Pep Guardiola? Does it come down to Pep?

MLT: A lot of it.

JS: I mean, brilliant as he's been, you know.

MLT: Yeah, I mean, like 20 trophies in 10 years.

JS: A lot of it you could attribute to him.

MLT: But also Arsene Wenger was a little bit like that as well. Arsene Wenger was very much kind of "pass, pass, pass, score the perfect goal", and when it comes off it's amazing. Do you remember the Jack Wilshere goal, where they did one‑twos around the edge of the box and it was brilliant, absolutely stunning goal. And it's brilliant, but that's like a once‑in‑a‑season, maybe once‑in‑a‑few‑seasons goal. But yeah, I think shooting from outside the box has kind of died off a little bit, and it needs to be brought back into the game, just like the long throws, bring the long‑distance shots back in as well.

JS: Yeah. Did you have a long‑throw specialist in your day?

MLT: Not really. Rory Delap came to Saints, but I think he was just after I retired.

JS: Right?

MLT: Or was it... he might have been there the last season I was there, but obviously that... yeah, he had a bit of a long throw on him.

JS: I mean, you mention Pep. Is there a manager...

MLT: Perry Groves had a long throw, that's just come back into my mind. Yeah, Perry had a decent long throw.

JS: I don't remember that.

MLT: Yeah, he did. Probably the most decent thing he had when he was at Saints, to be fair to him. He'll say that himself, not just me taking the mick, he'll tell you that himself.

JS: When you look at football these days, is there a manager out there that you'd have liked to have played under?

MLT: I think I would have liked to have played under maybe Klopp. I think that would have been quite interesting. Obviously, the high press would have tested me out a little bit, but as a bloke, he kind of came across as the kind of man‑manager that you would like to play for. I think that was kind of important to me in my time, where I felt a connection to a manager, like I felt like I wanted to play for him. And you know, Alan Ball was kind of my number one at that. He was really, really good for me in my career as a man‑manager. There are other players in the squad that will tell you the complete opposite, which is normal at a football club, but for me personally, Baldy was brilliant. You know, I loved playing under him, Chris Nicholl, Dave Jones, Gordon Strachan, which was right at the back end of my career and I only played a few games, but I loved Strachan. His demeanour in the changing room cracked me up. I thought he was brilliant, it was great fun.

JS: Yeah, as a lover of free speech then, you talked about Jürgen Klopp. Mo Salah speaking out, saying time for Liverpool to return to the heavy‑metal days. Do you think he's right to speak out when he's leaving the club? Do you defend his right to free speech?

MLT: Oh no, he's absolutely entitled to his opinion. If he wants to put that across, then I don't have a problem with that. I think there are maybe better ways he could have put it. I think he could have done it in a way that didn't really throw Arne Slot under the bus, unless that was his intention, which, without knowing what his intention was, I don't know. But, you know, I think he has a point. I think the style of play that Liverpool have had has not been as good as what it was a couple of years ago, and I think that's a pretty fair comment.

JS: We've talked about some of your views and some of your goals and some of your penalties. Let's talk about your red cards. One in the Premier League and one in the FA Cup.

MLT: Oh right.

JS: What happened? Because you weren't outwardly a rebel, you know?

MLT: Yeah, which one do I want to talk about? So I'll tell you about the first one, which is horrible for me because I let my team down badly. We were in the quarter‑final of the FA Cup. It was a replay against Norwich, and we knew the draw had been made for the semi‑final. We knew if we won this game we had Sunderland, who were in the division below, in the semi‑final. So this was a great chance for us to get to Wembley. So we're winning 1‑0 at Carrow Road in the replay. Neil Ruddock scored a header. And later on in the first half I was playing on the right side of midfield, and I just clipped a ball down the channel, and I clipped it and it had gone quite a fair way, and all of a sudden I've just felt this scraping down the back of my Achilles. And Robert Fleck, who was playing up front for Norwich, he'd come from behind, way late, so late, and he's just scraped his studs right down the back of my Achilles, and I lost it. The red mist just came down. He started walking off, and I'm fuming, and I'm walking after him, and obviously the ball... the referee hasn't seen it because he's followed the ball, so the ball's now down in the corner. So I'm now walking towards Robert Fleck, angry, and all the crowd that were right there could see what was going to happen, so they've all started going like that, and Robert Fleck turned round, and I still had the red mist. He turned around, I just smacked him one, forearm smashed him across the front and booted him at the same time, and obviously, because the crowd had started going like that, the ref turned round just in time to see it, and I let my team down badly, and I got red‑carded. So the game goes to extra‑time. We end up going to extra‑time. Barry Horne, who was my roommate at the time, gets sent off in extra‑time as well. So we're down to nine men, we take it all the way to 119 minutes, and Chris Sutton scores in the 119th minute, beat us 2‑1.

JS: Ugly.

MLT: And to this day, it's one of the worst moments of my career, because I let my team down, and it was a chance for us to get to Wembley, and I never got to play in a Wembley final, apart from the Zenith Data Systems Cup final, which wasn't quite the same. So, yeah, that was my FA Cup sending‑off. And then I got sent off by Dermot Gallagher in a Premier League game.

JS: Dermot.

MLT: Yeah, you should ask him about it, it's funny.

JS: Do you think... I mean, you mention Dermot. Were referees better in your day than they are now?

MLT: Were referees better...

JS: Or is it more difficult because of the scrutiny in this day and age?

MLT: Yeah, I think it's definitely more difficult. I think they've also abdicated some responsibility to VAR. I think they definitely don't make decisions because they know they've got a fall‑back option. So I think the referees then probably had a harder time of it in terms of having to make that split‑second decision. It's hard to compare and contrast. I don't know if we've ever had a time where a load of our referees have all been brilliant, but it's a hard game, it's a hard game to try and judge. The players are trying to cheat the referee all the time, you know. We all did it, we're all trying to get fouls in positions where we don't really deserve one, you know, we're all...

JS: You all did it. It's more sophisticated though, isn't it? I certainly think it's more prevalent now.

MLT: Yeah, it feels that way. It does feel like there's more of it, so I do feel a little bit sorry for them. But yeah, the sending‑off that I got at the Dell, we played Liverpool in the Premier League, and it was the only time in my career Dave Merrington was manager of Saints at the time, and he played me in a completely different position that I'd never played before. So basically what he did was we had a back four, and then we played five across midfield with just one forward. And he said to me, "I'm going to play you in the middle of the five in midfield, and I want you to sit just in front of the back four, and I want you to spray passes everywhere like a quarterback." And I was like, "All right, that sounds quite good." And then I realised, actually, when we were into the game, that in this position I've got to try and tackle people, I can't just sit here and spray the ball around. Liverpool are a decent team, they're going to have possession, I've got to try and tackle someone. And of course I mistimed a tackle in the first half, get a yellow card. So we go 1‑0 down in the game, and then we're chasing the game a little bit. So second half, I've come out of my position and gone to press their back four to try and get us back in the game. And again, I mistimed the tackle. There was nothing nasty in it, but I mistimed it and I fouled the guy, and Dermot's come up to me, I'll never forget his face. He almost looked apologetic, and he went, "Sorry Matt, I've got to send you off, second yellow." And in those days the referees, after the game, their car would be parked in the car park at the Dell, and they would have no protection, like they've got to walk out of the changing rooms and go to their car and face the wrath of the fans. And he'd come up and he went, "Really sorry Matt, I've got to send you off, second yellow." I went, "All right." I just went, "Good luck getting to your car after the game, mate," and just walked off. That was my two red cards. Yeah.

JS: People don't know, by the way, Dermot is one of the game's really good guys. Absolutely fantastic bloke. Let's just touch on the World Cup. I mean, obviously one of your disappointments was not playing in a World Cup finals, but England will go into this World Cup, as they often do, as one of the favourites. Do you think we are rightly one of the favourites?

MLT: I wouldn't say we're the best team in the world at the moment, but I think that we have enough ability in that squad and players in that squad that we can challenge to win it, and I would expect us at least to get to the semi‑finals. That's kind of where I think our level is, and when you get to that point, anything can happen really. You know, you just need a break at the right time, get yourself into the final, 50‑50 chance. So semi‑finals for me would be the bare minimum for that squad, I think. And yes, I think we're capable of winning it, but it would, I think, be the first time that a European team had won the World Cup in the Americas, if I'm right, I think. And so it adds an extra layer to it, but it's not impossible.

JS: I'm sure you'd love to see some of the creative spirits, if you like, given their head, someone like Morgan Rogers as a next‑world‑beater.

MLT: Yeah, I think Morgan Rogers has been very good this season. I think, you know, he's obviously very highly thought of by Tuchel. I think he'll probably start the first game.

JS: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we have such an embarrassment of riches in certain areas, but in other areas, you know, that's why I think I hesitate.

MLT: That's probably why we're not favourites to go and win the World Cup, because I think there are still areas in the team. I think centre‑back is probably a position where we're not overly strong, you know. We're probably going to play Reece James at right‑back, who's had his injury problems. I think we're fairly strong in the middle of midfield, you know. I think Rice and Henderson as a partnership, I think we'll be pretty solid to go in there with. But as you say, I just hope that the forward players in front of them are really given licence to go and play, to go and create and be dangerous, because we have got talent in those areas, and we've got one of the best centre‑forwards in the world.

JS: Yeah. You'll be looking forward to the days that Southampton players are named in the England squad again.

MLT: Wouldn't it be nice? Wouldn't it be nice?

JS: Tiss, thank you very much indeed for joining me. It's been a real pleasure, always.

MLT: Always a pleasure, mate.

JS: I do hope you've enjoyed the show. That was the Jeff Stelling Show with Matt Le Tissier, in conjunction with OLBG. Bye‑bye for now.

MLT: Bye.