The Jeff Stelling Show: Glenn Hoddle Opens Up on Spurs Return, England Role and Coaching Future

Full Transcript

JS: Hello. Welcome to the Jeff Stelling show with OLBG. Now, if you're of a certain age, our guest today will have been part of your life's footballing journey. As a player, he was often termed naturally gifted. He's unquestionably one of the greatest midfielders ever to come out of England. Of course, he played for his country, though not as often as many people would have wished. And of course, he also went on to manage England. These days, you'll see him as a pundit or hear him as a co commentator. I'm delighted to welcome Glenn Hoddle to the show. Hi, Glenn.

GH: Hello, Jeff. Yeah, pleasure to be here.

JS: Look, that phrase, naturally gifted. You know you're also called a luxury player. I just wonder how that sits with you sometimes, because naturally gifted makes it sound to me as if you found things easy, and I'm sure you had to work your socks off to get where you were?

GH: I did. I mean, I was a natural footballer, you know I was. I was born that way. I didn't have a choice in many ways, Jeff, but, I think others called a luxury player, or not just me, but those type of players back in the 80s in England. Only in England, they saw it because we played a different way. We played a different way to France, Germany, Spain and the continental way. So I think that's why that word luxury comes in about certain players, but we didn't quite understand or trust creative footballers in the 80s, in the 70s as well, and the 80s.

Going forward, fortunately, Jeff, it's changed. Now there's a lot of creative players and number 10s. There wasn't even a position for a number 10 back when I played everyone was 4 4 2, a bit of a hangover from 66’ winning the World Cup. We didn't change our game, we didn't go through the 70s trusting any creative players, really, when you think about it and so when you were a creative player in England back then, you felt as if you were always fighting against the tide, and that's just how the mentality was with English football.

JS: Yeah, we're going to talk a lot more about your playing days, but I just want to bring it right to the present, because in recent weeks,  there have been headlines about Tottenham talking to you about their their manager's job. Was there anything in that?

GH: No, they never came to us. After the Forest game, Ossie Ardiles and I felt there was a real problem there. I was at the match and we made it clear to them that we’d be willing to go in if they wanted us to, possibly alongside a younger legend as well. At the end of the game, Igor Tudor was in charge and to lose 3-0 at home to a team down near the bottom with you is a bad sign. To me, it looked like the club needed some care. It needed people to come in and help unite the fans, the owners and the team. That is why we said we would do it, but it didn’t really go anywhere. They said ‘they were looking elsewhere’, which is fine by me. I don’t mind who goes in. I’m a Spurs man through and through, ever since I was eight years old, so I just want them to get the right person in. Whoever it is deserves the chance, and everyone has to pull together. They have a real task on their hands. I just want them to stay up, whether i’m involved or not.

JS: Four managers in a year. I mean, you're a brave man!

GH: Well, it's because of the love I have for the club, really. I mean, I was only a young man. I was, what, 18 when we went down in the 70s. I was a part of that team, and that hurt me big time. Looking back in my career, it was a big, it was a big help. In many ways, I learned how to deal with negativity and how to lose before I actually had success. And I think that, in football terms, that's quite a good thing. You don't want to go through it. I hated it. The feeling was dreadful to be in a team that went down, especially a team you loved and supported as a kid. That really was difficult for me. But in the long run, it taught me a lot, and when we did get success, it meant so much more. It really did.

JS: I know you say it was Tottenham, but does that tell us that there is still a desire deep down to get back into coaching?

GH: Well, I have never shut the door on coaching. Never. But I tell you what I would really love to do. I put my own academy together for young players that were released, and I really enjoyed that. I think the problem we have in football is there is so much experience and talent that goes by and gets lost.

You go into other businesses and they say, well, I am retired some years, I do a bit of consultancy in whatever business. We do not do that in football. All the talent, all the experience, everything just goes out of the window, and the next generation come through and move in, whereas never in football do you have a consultancy type of thing.

So I would love to work and mentor young players. I know the journey they are going to have to go on as a player and a manager. And I would love to get some real good talent at a club and mentor them, because technically I can help them, tactically I can help them, as well as the mental side, because sport is all about your mental side.

They are all good, talented players nowadays, but the difference is what they are going to have to go through mentally. And again, I can help that as well. So I really would love to do something like that now, I really would. But it is not just me. There are other people in football. Everything just goes out of the window. No one trusts anyone in football.

If you work in the oil companies or whatever company it might be, they have you back if you have got that experience. Oh, please consult, come consult with us. How are we doing this? Yes, you are doing that right. Not so good, that bit. Why do not you think about that? I did this years ago, and it worked. And we do not do that in football. We really do not. And I think it is a shame, really.

JS: Maybe people should just take a look at Roy Hodgson. Yes, exactly.

GH: Yes. I am going to be at a charity event later on with Roy. And yes, 80 years of age, going back. And as long as you have still got the drive, as long as you have still got the love of the game, and that is what I have always had since I was year dot, you know. It was never hard work to me. It was always a labour of love.

JS: Why do you think it has been so long that you have not had a coaching role? I have heard you talk before, Glenn, and I know, listen to you talk tactics, I am gripped by it, so I do not get it.

GH: I could have gone for different jobs. It is probably because I have not put my name forward there for so many years. I had a passion to do this academy, and I did that for a little while, and loved doing that. And then afterwards, it was some TV. I was doing TV work as I am now, and I really enjoy that.

But I never really thought to myself, well, that is it, I am going to stop now. I just thought, well, if something comes along that is correct and right, then I will have a look at it. And I think you are right. I have got, like many people out there, such vast experience, and I played the game differently. I probably played the game closer to how it is being played now.

In the English game, I was always closer to the continental way of playing, or South American way of playing, and there was a sort of handful of players in England that played that way. But now I look at the game and I think, wow, what a great time for young creative players to come through and play now in England. The ball is played on the deck a lot more, and it is more technical, so those creative players are the ones that people want to talk about. They are not being called a luxury player.

For instance, it was always about that back in the 80s. That is how it was. We have got to go deep into where we went after we won the World Cup. They did not trust your Alan Hudsons and your Tony Curries and your Rodney Marshes and your Stan Bowles. They could not all play together, of course not, but they had two or three caps. And look what happened in the 70s. We never quite qualified for a tournament. It says it all, does not it?

So I think we went backwards after winning the World Cup, and it took a long time. I was in an era where it took a long, long time for us to change our ways. And fortunately we did with the academies and the schools of excellence, probably 15 years ago, getting more technical, getting more touches of the ball, changing the rules so that we did not play long ball game and big centre forward, centre back, goalkeeper, boot it long.

We now played smaller sided pitches, which they have been doing in every country all around the world. We had our head in the sand, to be honest, for a long time.

JS: Yes, and in your days, obviously you are playing, there is not just you but some of the talented players you just mentioned there, they did not get the protection that players who play that role, for instance, get now. And they played on pitches which you would not contemplate now.

GH: I think it is funny when I have shown some people in my family and friends as well, some youngsters, and they see the revisited stuff that comes on the telly from the 70s and 80s. The first thing they say is, wow, look at those pitches. How did you play on them pitches?

But the difference was, I suppose, like anything else in life, we did not know any different. We had to get on with it and play on them pitches. But you are right. Nowadays they are like carpets, absolutely beautiful. I often say to people, yes, I think I could do a bit of damage on them pitches.

You show these youngsters some of the games and they cannot believe their eyes, some of the tackles that go in, and the referee just comes up and shakes his head and says, no, do not do that again. There is not even a yellow card given out. So yes, it was a brutal game in many ways back then, and as a youngster coming through, getting in the first team at 17, I very quickly learned, Jeff, that it was not just about technique.

I was naturally two footed. I could play with the inside and the outside of my foot. I spent hours after hours playing as a kid against the wall, honing my skills. It was a labour of love. I did not see it as hard work, just work. And then I thought, wow, how physical this is. You are not just going to go out there and play like you want to play. Technically, you have to be strong. Mentally, you have to meet fire with fire sometimes.

It was not my game, but that is what I had to really work at. If someone said to me to work hard, I had to work hard at my mental side when I was young too. I believed in what I believed in as a player, and I heard lots of stuff that, oh, he does not do this, he is good at that, yes, but he does not do that. And that was the philosophy in England.

But you have to be strong minded to say, no, I know that is my natural game, and I am going to play this natural game. It does not matter what people say. That is the way I play, and take it or leave it, type of thing.

JS: Is that what Tottenham need at the moment? A creative midfield player, somebody who opens doors?

GH: I think they do. I do not think it is just Tottenham. I think we have got some really good number 10s that are in the England squad, some lovely creative players. I think James Maddison was a big miss for them. He is a creator. And I think Xavi Simons could be a real asset eventually. He has found it hard at the moment. At the weekend, he scored a wonderful goal, made a wonderful one, so you are hoping that that is a little platform for him now to go and get the confidence.

But at this moment in time, it is not about how pretty Tottenham play, or how good they play, or how good they perform. It is about winning football matches and holding on to a two one lead. That is more important than the way they played. And if it has to go in Row Z, it has to go in Row Z for the last 10 minutes to survive and make sure in the Premier League. So that has got to be looked at.

But yes, over the seasons, you are missing that type of player, the one that can just, even if he is having a quiet game, make a pass that can change the game, or a bit of skill, and score a goal.

JS: Of course. I mean, you had a couple of years in charge at Tottenham, and I read that at the time you thought that Daniel Levy and Joe Lewis had not necessarily fully supported you financially. So some Spurs fans would say not much has changed, and although other personnel have changed, neither Daniel or Joe are involved. But 14 permanent managers at Tottenham since you. What makes it such a difficult job?

GH: Yes, it has become such a difficult job that should be one of the best jobs in the country, without a doubt. The facilities, they have got everything. I just feel over the years that they had a real momentum. They built a lovely team, got to the Champions League final. They needed to build on that. I think they sat back and thought to themselves, well, we are in the Champions League final, we do not need too much more. But you do. They did.

They needed to go and get two or three really top players then, which they probably could have attracted to the club, and shop in Harrods. Go to Harrods to shop. They have never done that since ENIC have taken over. They have never gone top, top, top.

And when I said what I said about my situation, I was looking to bring in the likes of a young 21 year old Samuel Eto'o and Fernando Morientes from Real Madrid, and that would have cost probably 13 million, if I remember, for both of them. And in the end that did not happen, for whatever reasons. Then in the end I still got two very good players on a free transfer, Gus Poyet and Teddy Sheringham. Not bad. In their peak, like these two boys were that I was trying to get, they would have been sensational. They still were great players, but we were shopping in that area. We were on free transfers, and that was just my time there.

But I think it is also that they have got a wonderful stadium, we always hear about it, the training ground is off the charts. But unless you have got the squad, everything is there that most people get after the squad is right. They start winning and then, oh, can we build a stadium for them, the training ground? We have done it the other way around. Everything is there, ready. What is not there at the moment is the top, top quality players, maybe two of them, that are really going to take you to another level, the level that that stadium deserves, the team that that stadium deserves to have.

That has never really been the number one priority there. You can say, well, we have spent money, we have done this. Yes, but there have been a lot of average players come to the club over a long period of time, over those 14 managers, if you like, because that is where you have had to shop.

Now, recruitment is so important. Other clubs have done it, the likes of Bournemouth, Brighton, Brentford. There are some top quality players. You can still bring those players in. But the emphasis at Tottenham, the club, how we are set up, how we have tried to set ourselves up, needs a top quality squad, and that means you have to spend money.

And every penny that is made outside of the football club, which is a wonderful thing to do, not many clubs have got what they do, concerts, rugby, all of that, if every penny of that is going back into the squad, every fan and every football man will go, happy days, this is the formula. But it has not been. And that is where I think there is a dislodgement in some of the stuff. It is corporate. It is too corporate.

If that corporate is making your money and it is going back into the football, Tottenham Hotspur is a football club. It is not a concert arena, it is not a boxing arena, it is not an NFL club. It is a football club, FC. And that is why everything that is on is on the back of Tottenham FC, not the other way around. So every penny should be being spent on the club.

JS: So has it lost its soul a bit?

GH: You only lose your soul if you lose the fans. If the fans become so different, the soul of the building is just the building, but how you get on in that building, that is the soul, that is the energy. I think that is always going to be the same, and I do not think that has changed at Tottenham at all.

When I go there, yes, there is going to be disgruntlement. They have always been a demanding crowd. Even when I was a youngster, 17, 18, before that when I was an apprentice, we had Martin Chivers, Martin Peters, Alan Mullery, young Steve Perryman, some fantastic players. But they would always say, and I was in the crowd as an apprentice or a young schoolboy, give the ball away once, wow, the crowd would be on, twice, they are on your back.

And I used to think, well, that is this. I do not mind that. That is the standard they are used to. They were used to the double team in the 60s, and they had won things, and they had been the top team in Europe, first team to win a trophy in Europe. So I thought, that is the standard you set. I do not mind that. They have always been a demanding crowd, but united at the same time. And you just hope that stays the same. We are in a precarious position at the moment. There is no doubt about it.

JS: I mean, you talk about being an apprentice or being 17 or 18, and I am just looking back at a photo that you brought in there. I am guessing you would probably be about that age. You have got a very youthful look.

GH: A lot of hair, Jeff. It is a bit Pat Jennings like. Pat was at the club then. I played with Pat on my debut. And that would have been when I was about 17, when I came on against Norwich actually. I think it is like a bird’s nest.

JS: What were your sort of hopes and aspirations then? Did you realise how well it might go for you?

GH: I was there at 11, started training at 11, and every year I went back. From 11 to 15 there must have been thousands and thousands of kids that came and disappeared, and I was always told, yes, you are back next year. So I knew I was doing something good.

I was only 11 or 12 and I was training with 15 year olds. Physically it was tough, but I knew I was ahead of my age group, if you like. I had a couple of setbacks. I tore my cartilage when I was 14, completely tore my cartilage, and thought my career was over. Tottenham eventually found out that I had done my knee and they had me operated on. But I was in doubt. I thought I had lost my career.

I got hit with a cricket ball playing cricket at school around a similar age and nearly lost my eyesight. I had a blood clot behind the eye and had to lie with my head still for three weeks in hospital. That would have ruined my career. Then I overcame that, and suddenly I kept going back. Yes, you are coming back again, Glenn, pre season starts at blah, blah, blah. I was just a kid, a schoolboy, so I knew I was doing okay.

But Jeff, when you are at a club like Tottenham, or any professional club, you really do not know, and they will not let you know. They keep your feet on the ground. They might say things behind the scenes about what a player is going to be, or whatever, but they do not let you know. You have got to earn your Spurs, use the pun. You have got to go there every year, every session, every training. And that was me.

The pride I had in my performance was incredible really, when I was a professional, but also when I was a kid. If that ball went under my foot or I messed a skill up, that would hurt me deep inside. But what it did, it urged me on. Not to be perfect, because no one is perfect, but there is nothing wrong with striving to be perfect, and I think that is where you get the best out of yourself.

That hurt me, even as a pro, and when I was a manager that is what I would demand from the players. We have all got different levels of skill, but if things kept happening repeatedly, like letting the ball go and it was just concentration, then I would be on them for their own good, to get the best out of themselves. Looking back, that is what I always was, trying to get the best out of myself, because I was demanding on myself.

JS: Glenn, look, we touched on that phrase naturally gifted. Is there anyone around now in the game who you feel is naturally gifted?

GH: Yes, I would say there are a few actually. I think Kevin De Bruyne is naturally gifted. I think Mesut Özil is a natural player. He is another one in the modern day that does not get called a luxury player. But as a kid coming through, a lot of people would have looked at him, coaches in England would have looked at him and gone, not for me, he is too casual, too much of a luxury. But that is the way he plays. That is his natural way.

He looks like it is easy to him, and I think that is the difference. When you are a natural footballer, things look easy, so people think that you are easy. No. It is like watching John McEnroe back in the day and Jimmy Connors. Both fantastic players, but Jimmy Connors looked like he was putting every ounce of effort into every shot because he had to play like that, whereas McEnroe was just natural talent and flowed with the way he played. He looked as if he was running less. He looked as if he was at ease.

That is what a really natural player does. He looks like he is playing in a different motion. He looks like he has got a little bit more time. That is the difference between the top quality sportsmen really. In many ways they just look as if they have got more time than anyone else. But some people might think that is a bit easy, he is too easy on himself, or that is just the way he plays. But that is his natural way of playing.

I think there are some players like that around at the moment. I think Cole Palmer is like that. Palmer is a natural footballer, what I call a playground footballer. You have got to have the mentality as well, but sometimes to be a top player in top moments you have to have a training ground head. What I mean by that is you have to be so relaxed that you do not freeze when you get that opportunity.

That split second, you freeze up because it is a big game, a big opportunity, on the edge of the box. No, you actually relax even more. You play as if it was a training ground, no one watching. Bang, curl it in the top corner if you can. That is what you need to produce mentally in that split moment to produce your best.

And everyone looks and goes, oh, he is a bit too easy. If it does not work, they go, he is too easy. So it is a bit of a conundrum really. I like to make the analogy with other sports. I think people, if they are wrapped up in football, can look at it and go, hang on a minute, yes, I see what you are saying. Because the McEnroe, Connors scenario, you could do it with Carlos Alcaraz and Novak Djokovic actually. They are two different fantastic players, but Alcaraz is just a natural, natural tennis player, and you can see that in football players too.

JS: And if you have looked at the number 10s, obviously we are looking at World Cup squads, you look for number 10s, potential number 10s now, and Mesut Özil would be one of them, Cole Palmer would be another. But they are very different players, are they not, to the likes of Jude Bellingham or Morgan Gibbs White, for example?

GH: Yes, they are. There are different styles within those 10s. And you could put Phil Foden in there now. Foden is not getting enough opportunities at the moment, which is a bit scary. But yes, you have got different styles of 10s, which is also intriguing. How does the manager mould them together and blend them together? Which style does he go with? Or does he take one for one reason and another for a slightly different reason? Probably that is what you want to do, because any manager wants to balance it off.

Back in the day there were no 10s. We did not have a position for a number 10. But now, because of what I said earlier about the academies changing and focusing on technique, you have got back players now that can pass the ball.

It used to drive me mad when I played for England. Me and Ray Wilkins would look at each other because it was always hit the front, hit the front. Too many teams hit the front. In international football, you cannot give that ball away too easily. Technically, I am not talking about character and strength and defending and all that, but I think in international football, particularly back then and even now, you are only as good as your weakest link on the ball.

Unfortunately, our centre backs and sometimes full backs were not good enough on the ball. They were not encouraged to pass the ball into midfield, and they were not happy doing that. They were happy to go long, and that is how they played in their club team. That is where we had a real problem back in the 80s.

We had some wonderful teams, lovely footballers, and in the shape of the modern game they could really have flourished. But we were under coached. We never had somebody that really said, right, we are going to play this way, maybe three at the back, flood the midfield, or play one just behind a striker with two wide players. Just off the top of my head, you had Chris Waddle and John Barnes, for instance, two wide men. Look at them now, if they were playing now, coming inside. You had creative players.

But we were never really moulded into a team that suited them. It suited 4 4 2 and the way England played and the way English football was played back then, so we were way behind coaching wise.

JS: Which surprises me a bit because your England career was spent under Ron Greenwood and Bobby Robson, who both had reputations for being great footballing men.

GH: Listen, absolutely. I was shocked. I was really surprised that we did not do enough team shape work. We did not have much time together anyway, but it was a bit of an eye opener, to be honest.

When I got the England job, I never thought I was going to be England manager, but I thought if ever I got it, because as a player I played 53 times, and most of the time we were playing against five in midfield. They would outnumber us in midfield, and they were all technicians, most teams. Then when we had it, we were outnumbered, and we had no options because we were playing 4 4 2 in straight lines. When they had it, they outnumbered us. We were getting run around.

That is why I said, if ever I got that job, I would make sure we had three at the back in possession, then flood the midfield. We would have five in there with the wing backs and make sure we bolstered that midfield and kept our two up front. Nowadays it is one up front and you have to reshape something, but back then that is why I did what I did. I felt it was right for the international scene, for England.

Other teams could be flexible enough, but we acted as if we had to do it because I had been fed up chasing the ball as an international footballer, and then getting the ball and not having enough really good options on it. So I learned from my playing days that that is how I was going to coach them.

JS: Yes, we will talk more about coaching and your spell as England manager. We are talking about brilliant players, technical players. Who was, in your opinion, the best ever? Who is the best you played against?

GH: Oh, without a doubt, it is an easy one. He is a bugger because he called it the Hand of God, I have got to tell you, and I think you know who it is. Diego Maradona was an incredible player. He really was. He was a genius.

To play, as you said, on those pitches in an era when they could absolutely kick him left, right and centre, and yet be so strong mentally, he would just get up and go again. I say he is the best footballer I have ever seen. I also say he is one of the best hurdlers I have ever seen, because the amount of times he would beat someone and they were trying to chop him, he is jumping a leg, then he beats the next one and he is jumping a leg again. He was incredible.

If young youngsters are listening to this and they have not YouTubed him, go on YouTube and watch Maradona. Your breath will be taken away by some of the things he could do on a football pitch, in an era when the pitches were not great and they were trying to kill him. But he was so brave. He used to take every kick, and that would rile him up to play even better.

JS: But here he is in a Tottenham shirt. How did you manage that?

GH: That was with Ossie Ardiles, Ossie’s testimonial. It was great, against Inter Milan at White Hart Lane. Ossie had got him over. That was only, I think, six months, something like that, maybe four months, before the World Cup in 86. I should have really sort of squeezed his left arm a little bit harder and perhaps he would not have scored his Hand of God goal. But no, joking apart, he was sensational.

JS: You were telling me you might have played with him at Napoli.

GH: Yes, I nearly went to Napoli in 82. He went in 83. I went in 82, but it all got called off. I probably missed a bullet there. I was all due to go, and the president ended up in prison, I think, and the manager was not far from going there as well. So it was all off.

I sort of missed out there, but it would have been interesting if I had gone there a year before. I might have ended up playing with Diego Maradona. That would have been sensational. But listen, sliding doors, innit. One door shuts and opens and whatever. But yes, it was a good possibility I could have ended up at Napoli.

JS: In football terms, it is the scariest city I have ever been to by a long, long way, and the scariest stadium as well.

GH: Oh absolutely. I remember being driven around, and the traffic alone was crazy. Amazing. But fantastic football supporters.

What Diego Maradona did there just proves how good he was. They were a very average team then. They were not winning trophies, they were just there or thereabouts, probably fifth or sixth in the league. But for him to go there and do what he did just proves how good he was.

And when they won the World Cup in 86, when we played against them, that team was not a great team. There were not that many great players there. You cannot win a tournament on your own, of course not, it is a team game, but if ever anyone won it on his own, he won it. He was outstanding. Incredible that World Cup. Brilliant footballer, no question.

JS: You did not go to Napoli because you went to Monaco with Arsène Wenger. How big a help was that with your career and your coaching career?

GH: On the coaching side, huge. I loved every minute at Monaco. At Tottenham I had been there from when I was 11 until I was 28, so I needed to get abroad. I needed to go abroad and test myself.

I ended up at Monaco. I thought I was going to Paris Saint Germain, but the two clubs could not get a deal done. Then Arsène Wenger asked me to go down and talk to him, and I did not know Arsène at all. Had not heard of him. He had only just taken over. It was his first year at Monaco. Mark Hateley had just been signed.

Within 10 minutes of talking to him, I knew I wanted to play for him. The way he explained how we would play, how the team would play, that I would be the number 10 and the number 10 was the most important position, I was thinking this is music to my ears. I had been waiting for this for years.

I went to Monaco, really enjoyed it, won the league the first year we were there, something I did not do with Tottenham, which I would have loved to have done with my club. We had a great team and played some lovely football.

Arsène was somebody you learned from. As a coach, he was totally different to how we were doing things in England and at Tottenham. Everything holistic about it, nutrition, what you eat, how you stretch, the amount of time you stretch, massage. In England you would be kicked out of the dressing room if you asked for a massage, whereas there it was compulsory after a game, compulsory the day after, recuperation, all those things, as well as the tactical side and the training.

Then one day he said to me, I remember it clearly, we were stretching, and we did about 45 minutes after every session. Incredible, but I felt fitter, I have got to say. He said, have you ever thought about going into coaching, Glenn? I joked and said, what, am I not playing well enough for you? And he said no, I think you would make a good coach, have a think about it.

I had not really thought about that. Then slowly but surely I ended up with an infected knee which put me out for about eight months. Suddenly I thought about what Arsène had said, and I gave myself a sort of mini apprenticeship in management. I started to look at games with a different view, like if I had been the manager or the opponent’s manager. I watched games in a different way.

I was giving myself that apprenticeship without knowing I was going to go in that direction. I was hoping to get my knee right and stay at Monaco and play again. They offered me a two year contract, but I did not feel right. I knew my knee was not right. I did not know if I was going to play again, so I came home. Ironically, while trying to get fit back here, the Swindon job came up and they asked me. Totally out of the blue. And I went, yes, why not?

So I think Arsène had a big influence on me. What he did, Jeff, was sow the seed. He put the seed in there, which was not there before. And that period of eight months gave it time to grow. It gave me time to look at football differently, with a completely different eye, which was wonderful. In the long term I was desperate to play again, but I did not play again at Monaco.

JS: We have got a picture of you there. Different hairstyle again, slightly, Monaco.

GH: I went really short actually. I think that was when I first went there. Then I went really short. It was too hot.

JS: And of course it was at that time that Michel Platini famously said Glenn Hoddle was born as a Frenchman, and they built the entire team around him, which is quite a contrast in attitude just over the Channel.

GH: Totally different, Jeff. Totally. Like I said earlier, and I think that was most foreign countries, they loved creative football. The press, the fans, the people there, it was a totally different outlook.

The French team Platini played in during the 80s eventually got over the line and won the Euros. Then later they reinvented themselves and went on to win the World Cup and the Euros with more athleticism. They already had the technique. It was different to what we had. We needed to find the technique and then let it flourish.

They had missed out on the mentality side and the physical side, and they put that together at Clairefontaine, the academy of excellence, and built that into their game. It is easier to add strength and mentality if you have already got the technique than it is the other way round.

They had some wonderful flair players. Platini and all of that era probably did not win as much as they should have done, but then they changed their philosophy a little, became stronger, and went on to do what they did. The Germans did the same. They were always reinventing themselves. We stood still for a long time. We really did.

So the philosophy in France, and Spain, Italy, Germany too, was creative. They loved watching creative football. They loved to see goals scored and number 10s playing at their best. Which I absolutely loved. It was lovely to feel that.

Arsène said to me at half time in a pre season game against Red Star Belgrade, Glenn, you are coming back too far. I had battles with managers before about being box to box, defending, getting in the box, all of that. He said, we have got two players behind you, good players, they will win the ball. You are the number 10. You need to be up there. Defend with Mark Hateley and the centre forward if you need to organise it, great. But up there, we do not want you coming back. We will get you the ball.

It was like, wow. This is music to my ears. I had been waiting for this forever. It was wonderful. I loved it.

JS: And when we touched on the fact that we have some wonderful players now, there is no question about that, yet still it seems that we cannot make that break. Is that just the weight of the England shirt, or is it more than that?

GH: I think there is a part of that, there really is. But if you have got the weight of the Brazilian shirt or the French shirt now, or the German shirt, it is no different. The fact that they have won things when we have not, 66 is always going to be on people’s shoulders until we get over that line. And that means the Euros as well.

We were so close at Wembley. We will never get a better chance, will we? But once it happens, even if it is a Euros, if we win a tournament, then I think you will see us flourish and maybe go on like the French did and dominate a little bit. But the hardest thing is getting over that line first, and that comes at the mental level.

We have got some wonderful players, but they have got to step up and know they can go out there and take on anyone in the world. We are not favourites. There is not a favourite for this World Cup, I do not think. I think we are one of the favourites that could win it. But it is about how they go out every single game. If they look at their opponents and know they are better than them, then I think we could go on and win this trophy.

It is going to be tough with the heat and maybe that favours other countries more than a European country, but a lot of those players are playing in Europe anyway, so that might counteract it a little bit. But it will be tough.

The big thing is not just believing you are good enough to win it, but knowing you are good enough to win it. There is a difference. There is hoping you are going to win, there is believing you are going to win, and then my word, when you know you are going to win, that is a different mentality.

JS: So going into 98, where were you then? Were you hoping we were going to win? Did you believe we were going to win?

GH: I will answer that in one way, because I got stick for it, but I prepared every hotel right the way to the final, so you could see where my mindset was. The difficulty is getting everyone else on the same song sheet. The players, the staff, the back room staff, everyone has to have that same energy, belief, and knowing that we can win this thing.

And if it turns into we are going to win it, that happens during a tournament. I think if, with 10 men, we knock Argentina out, that belief would have turned into knowing we could beat anyone. Then you are in a different mindset.

So all the questions before a tournament, do you think you can win it, of course you get asked them. But it is what happens during the tournament that defines it. If positive things happen and you get everyone on board, then it changes.

My mindset was clear. Where is the final, where is the semi final, if we get there we need hotels, training grounds, everything. Why wait? If you are waiting and putting your mind in 50 50 mode, that is not going to work. You are conning yourself. And I could not con myself.

Everything in life does not always work out that way, but as long as you set out to achieve those things, that is what you have got to do. Like as a player, you do not want that ball to go under you, but when it does, it hurts you. You need to be a perfectionist, do not you? Then you learn from it and go on.

JS: So look, Thomas Tuchel is picking his England squad. How difficult a job is that?

GH: I think he has got a slightly different problem. I had a bunch of strikers that we have not got now. I had 9 or 10 strikers. Some of them I could not get anywhere near the team. People like Andy Cole could not get in the squad. I had so many good strikers.

I think Tuchel has got so many number 10s, if you like. He cannot take them all. So in the end you have got to look at the balance of the squad. You have got to visualise what you might need. If you are behind in a game, do I need a different style of player to come on up front? If we have got to hang on, what do we need? You are visualising what might happen, but you go with balance.

I think that is the key one for Tuchel, who he takes in the 10 position. He has got an abundance of players there. I think that midfield area, especially in the heat, needs the right players. It needs a bit of protection for the back four because we will come under pressure against top teams.

The only problem I feel is up front. If anything happens to Harry Kane, then we are going to be in trouble. It is asking Harry a lot to play the season he is playing. I have seen him in tournaments where he looks tired at the end of a season.

You would hope the Bundesliga has helped with that, but if they go all the way in the Champions League and win it, that will take a lot out of him. We have not got two or three that can come in and do his job. That is where the real problem is. That cutting edge part of the pitch.

That is what Italy had in 82 with Paolo Rossi. The press wanted him out after the first three games, then he scores a hat trick against Brazil, gets them to the final, and wins it. That is what we have not got if Harry goes out of the team. I am hoping Harry can keep his form and freshness during the World Cup because he is a wonderful player.

JS: So you mentioned the 10s. Who do you take?

GH: My concern is Phil Foden. I love Foden. I think he is a fantastic footballer, but he is not getting chances, not playing at the moment, and that really concerns me. I think Cole Palmer is a special player. So you would have to choose one of those two.

I think you take Jude Bellingham. He gives you more than just a 10. He is not really an out and out 10, what I call a 10. But I would definitely take Palmer, possibly Foden as well, because Foden is cute enough to play out wide and come in from there as well as play as a 10. But he has not had enough football.

I do not know whether Tuchel looks at that and says, you have not played enough, I have not been able to really put my hat on you because I have not seen you enough. I know what you can do. At the beginning of the season he was a shoe in. He was outstanding, scoring goals, brilliant. But he just has not had the opportunities at the moment, and I think that is a shame for England.

Palmer has had injury problems. He needs to get back on the horse and get back to his very best again before the World Cup and during the World Cup. They are wonderful players, those two.

I do not think Özil will go. I do not think he is quite ready yet. Wonderful player overall. But I think he likes Rogers. I think Morgan Rogers is the one he starts with actually. How he gets Bellingham into the team with him, I do not know, but that is what I would go with.

I think Palmer has to be in there. Has to be. What he did last year was sensational, and what he can do now. But when we talk about number 10s with England, you have to let them be that real number 10, that creator. Foden has not had that and Palmer has not really had it either. They do not feel like starters. They feel as if they are on trial every time they play.

If you want to be a creator, you cannot play like that. I felt like that every time I played for England. I was out on the right hand side and because of the system you felt as if you were on trial every game. I scored on my debut, scored one, made the other, then did not play for six games. So when I came back in, it was like I had to prove myself again.

I think Foden and Palmer feel as if every time they put an England shirt on, they have got to prove something. You are never going to get the best out of a number 10 doing that. If Rogers is the one Tuchel goes with, then he is saying, you are my man. That relaxes him. That allows him to make a few mistakes. And a number 10 has to make a few mistakes. You cannot put wonder balls in and score wonder goals every time you get it. You will make mistakes, but what matters is whether the manager accepts that or whether you tighten up. The tighter you get, the further you go away from being a creative player because you stop taking the chance.

That is the inner player talking there. It is a long time since I played, but he has got loads of options in that position. He really has. And I like that. I think Brazil, France, Argentina, maybe not Spain, would love to have our five or six options there to choose from. They have not got as many real creators as we have.

JS: Does it surprise you that 30 years on people like me are still asking about the decision to leave Gascoigne out of that squad in 1998?

GH: No, because it is a simple answer. I think I have answered this with you before actually. We have spoken about it and I have said it in many places.

JS: Here you go, with him. He is your sort of player, is he not?

GH: Absolutely. Gazza would have been there. In the way he played, every qualifying game he was fit, he was in. He was not fit that year. That was the problem. He was carrying two injuries. And then he got a third in the last game against Morocco. He had a haematoma, got whacked, had to come off.

All season at Middlesbrough he had a calf problem and a knee problem. He was nursing them, missed a lot of games, missed a couple with us for England, and I remember saying to him, Gazza, keep yourself fit. You are leasing the car, they are not yours. They go back to their club. It is like a car you give back and then take again. You are never hands on.

He was up there at Middlesbrough, housed with Merse at the time.

JS: Dream team.

GH: Well, imagine what those two were like. Anyway, I said keep yourself fit, keep yourself fit. It is as simple as this. If he had got through that game, he probably goes.

I remember it was a horrible dressing room in Morocco. We had that tournament and Morocco was the last game before I was going to name things. I pulled him aside and said, play two touch, play three touch. I just need you to get through 90 minutes with your injuries. And he did not. He starts dribbling like he does, a lovely little run, did not need to prove anything to anyone, and he gets cropped.

The next day I asked the lads, how long is it going to be? They said it is a bad haematoma, going to be three weeks at least. And on top of the other two, that was it.

So the only reason Paul Gascoigne did not go was because of his injuries. I had him in every game, every squad, when he was available. He was there for the qualifying games. But the press did not want to hear that, did they? That would have messed up the sensational story.

I looked at it and thought, well, I had brought in a young David Beckham and a young Paul Scholes at the time. Terrific players, wonderful players, still learning because they were very young. And I thought we had ability there.

It was the saddest decision I made as a manager, but not the most difficult. The most difficult was at Swindon, telling six lads they were not going to be signed on, and four of them broke down. I had not even been a manager six weeks. That was horrible. Telling them they were not going to be professional footballers. That hurt me deeply.

After that, I thought, anything I have to decide going forward as a manager, nothing will ever be like that. So in a strange way it made later decisions easier. Leaving someone out of a team or a squad, nothing compared to that. That stood me in good stead.

JS: People would never mention it again if we had gone on and won the tournament.

GH: Of course not.

JS: And obviously that game against Argentina, everybody talks about the David Beckham sending off. People forget the sensational Michael Owen goal. They forget the Sol Campbell disallowed goal. The battle with 10 men against one of the best teams in the world. I am sure you would have been convinced that if we had won that game, we would have gone on and won the World Cup.

GH: Well, I think that was the key. Could you imagine where our belief levels would have gone if we had knocked them out with 10 men? And not only that, how feared we would have been by the other teams. Whoever we had to play would have thought, wow, that was some performance.

It went to penalties and it did not go our way. But with 10 men we went toe to toe, and more than toe to toe. As you say, Sol scored. He gave a foul against Alan Shearer, not against Sol. And when I look back, the sending off is a yellow card, not a red card. It was flippant, but it was a yellow card. So the referee made those two big decisions.

There were other decisions too. There was definitely a handball in golden goal. I saw him put the whistle to his mouth and then take it away, because I think he realised it was golden goal. Roberto Ayala handles it as Alan Shearer appeals. No one else appeals. I saw it, and I am literally looking at the referee, Nielsen, and he puts the whistle to his mouth and then just takes it away. Imagine my heart.

That was the most emotional game I have ever been involved in. The ups and downs, the roller coaster of what we achieved, what we thought we had achieved, then suddenly it is gone. Incredible. It really was.

JS: It could have changed the future of football in this country, could it not? Certainly changed your future as well. I have to ask you, do you ever regret taking the England job?

GH: You know what, I probably foresaw a little bit of it when I was asking myself whether I should take it. Before I sat down and thought about it on my own, then spoke to my family, I came round to the conclusion that it was the most wonderful job you could have, coaching the cream of the country.

Going into possibly a World Cup, we had not qualified then, but going into a World Cup, I had played in one, watched it as a kid, watched 66. All those things were going through my mind. Going against the best in the world, the best coaches, and I was still very young.

Football wise I had no fears about taking it. I was excited by it. I had a passion for football and I was excited about having Shearers, Inces, Dave Seaman, all these players, the cream of the country.

Then I said to myself, the only issue is the press. There is going to be pressure on my family, pressure on me, but I can cope with football pressure. That does not concern me. There might be some rubbish that goes with it. I had seen it with managers. I had seen it as a player with Bobby Robson. Every England manager gets some sort of outside football stick, which is wrong. Other countries do not do that. If it is football, sack him because you are not winning football matches.

But I summed it all up and thought, that is not a reason to turn your country down in a sport you are passionate about and love. Why would you turn it down because you fear what they might do?

So those were my reasons, and I would take it again tomorrow. Ironically, that is what happened. It was not really for football reasons that the press turned on me in many ways. So it was almost like I had foreseen a little bit of what might happen. But I shoved that out of my mind. I said that is not a reason, Glenn, to turn your country down.

If I had turned it down for that reason, and it had come again 10 years later, I would have had to turn it down again because I would not have been true to myself. So I thought no, this is exciting. I never dreamt I was going to go into football management, let alone become England manager. It is just the path that opened up for me, and I took it.

I could have said no to Swindon. I had not done one coaching session before I took over there. I had done a coaching course as a kid, six weeks of FA coaching when I was 15 or 16, but I had never taken a session. I could easily have said no, not for me. But I did not. I thought, nice, that is my next step in life.

The frustrating thing is not regret. No frustration in that sense. Because Jeff, we had the template that every manager wants. Very good players, experience and youth. We had Alan Shearer, Teddy Sheringham, Paul Ince, David Seaman, Tony Adams, and then David Beckham, Rio Ferdinand, Michael Owen. Put that together and that is the balance every manager would want.

All very good players, and if you gel them together, I really do believe we could have gone on. If that result had gone another way, who knows. The performance in Rome to qualify was titanic, and going to their own backyard unbeaten and doing what we did there was sensational. So I knew we had a team people feared.

We played differently. We had three at the back constantly, and we played through the pitch, through the lines as they say now. We had flair, but also some strength about us. We had a solid back three, but they could use the ball as well.

It is easy to say now we will never know, but I know in my heart and my head the vision I had. Take Rio Ferdinand for instance. Fantastic centre half, fantastic footballing centre half. He never really got the chance to show how good he could have been in a three. He always played in club sides with a four, and you cannot step into midfield in the same way.

My last game was against the Czech Republic and he was sweeper, coming into midfield, with Ince dropping in if needed. We had it off to a tee. He would have been like a German sweeper, going into midfield with or without the ball and making the difference because he could use the ball.

I have often spoken to Rio about that when we did TV together. He could have flourished even more in that system, and given us another dimension to the team. All those things were in my mind. That is the frustration really, because all of that went out the window.

JS: Listening to you talk, Glenn, you are so passionate. That is why I know we need you back in the game. That is absolutely it. Look, time has beaten us, so just sing us out with a chorus of Diamond Lights.

GH: I thought I got away with it.

JS: Lovely to talk to you yet again, as always. Thank you very much indeed.