Broadcast legend Jeff Stelling launches new podcast with outspoken Dorking Wanderers boss Marc White as first guest

Full Transcipt

JS: Have you ever totted up how much in fines you'd paid and how many games you've missed in terms of touchline bans?

MW: I definitely think, if I'm being honest with you, I've learned a lot along the way. I've understood what you can and can't do.

JS: Do you ever think, I need to stop this? Why am I doing it?

MW: Nah, too late. I'm all in.

JS: You know, I used to love listening to people in football who spoke their minds. They had an opinion, whether people liked it or not. The sort of people, Brian Clough, Sir Alex Ferguson, Jack Charlton, more recently Neil Warnock, ‘Ollie’ Ian Holloway, and I'm lucky enough to have interviewed them all. But now they're becoming a rarefied species, not just in football, not just in sport, but in life as well. Speak out now and you're sacked, you're fined, you're banned, or even worse. Thankfully, it's never seemed to bother my guest. As chairman and owner of National League South Dorking Wanderers, he's never been bothered about giving stick to his manager. That's because he is the manager as well. Marc White is probably the most outspoken man in football these days, and I'm delighted to say he's my guest on the Jeff Stelling Show with OLBG. Hi, Marc. Thanks for coming in.

MW: I am, yeah. Thanks for inviting me. I mean, to be associated with some of those names on that list, yeah, Cloughy and Ferguson, etc.

JS: They said things that they believed. You couldn't say it now, because everybody says you're the most unfiltered manager in football, but nowadays most people believe you have to have a filter.

MW: Luckily, as you said, I'm the owner manager. I do what I want, say what I want, but also I've got a love for the game. I'm able to use that kind of luxurious position, owning the club and running the club, to my advantage, to maybe bang the drum for the sort of working class football fan, because I'm not worried about repercussions, the FA etc, hence all the bans.

JS: Yeah, which we'll talk about in a minute. Just before we get stuck into the football, I should warn people that we're going to show some photos today, okay? And the first photo we're going to show, well, you may want to turn away for a moment or two, because it shows Marc White undressed. You ready? Here it is. No hat.

MW: What happened? I know, I can only imagine. It got soggy the game before. That was back in the day when I didn't have a whole production line of hats. It's really weird, because the only person I can remember wearing a hat before me in football was Tony Pulis. But I think Tony was more so because his hair was sort of in the departure lounge, so I think he started covering it up.

JS: Well, he imagined yours was, but it’s not, you’ve got loads of it.

MW: Yeah, no, yeah. Mine is transplant-esque, but that wasn't the reason for the hats. I just, yeah, the hats were just what I started wearing, and then I kind of like, become synonymous. And people just say, where's the hat? If I wear a hat, people go, that's Marc. It's strange. So I kind of got to wear one, whether like it or not now.

JS: Yeah, brilliant. It's what people associate you with. Look, we've talked about bans and fines and so on and so forth. Before I first met you, I'd seen loads of interviews. I'd seen you battering the interviewer, battering your players, battering everybody really. And it made me wonder, if your side has conceded a last-minute goal, who's the most difficult person to interview, you or Pep Guardiola? What do you think?

MW: Probably me, I'd imagine. The thing is, I've always got that financial view. So it's so hard to separate the we've just been beaten last minute as a manager, and we've just been beaten last minute and it could affect the financial implications if it's an FA Cup run or if we've got promotion aspirations. I'm not sure I'd want to interview me after a last minute winner. I would, but the people that do interview me now, they've worked out a mechanism to calm me down.

JS: Yeah. When you've had a go at players, when you got back in the dressing room, did they ever go back at you?

MW: No. I mean, to be fair, I operate, again, it's the fortune of being the owner and the manager, I just operate that firm but fair environment. So you're as likely to get praised for doing something well in a four-one defeat as you are to get battered for doing something wrong in a seven-nil win. I mean, I remember having a fight physically with the goalie when we won seven-two in the changing room at the end of the game because he let in two goals and I was fuming about it. So if the players see you operating fairly and consistently, they tend to think you're not a knobhead and you actually just operate in a fair way. And I think that's all a lot of footballers ever say. Look, as long as you treat people fairly, they can roll with the punches. In our case, that's quite literal sometimes.

JS: How did that fight end up then? Because as a goalkeeper, I'm assuming he's bigger than you. He's got a longer reach than you.

MW: Yeah. No, no, no. I was kind of a cross between Anthony Joshua and Prince Naseem in movement. But no, listen, it was broken up pretty quick. And he's a top guy, but it's that kind of never satisfied thing. Don't dine out on anything for too long. Conversely, we've been beaten maybe four-one, five-one, whatever, and I've just gone in there, not seen that many negatives, built them back up again. So you never quite know what to expect with me. But I think that's the art of any leadership, to be a little bit unpredictable.

JS: Yeah, because when I first met you, it was the last game of the season, wasn't it? Dorking were at home to Hartlepool, and I'd come down dressed as a Blues Brother, because we all travel in fancy dress on the last day of the season. I've gone along and bumped into you there, and I'm thinking, after all the stuff I've seen, you're going to be Mr Angry at least, because it's been a close game, seven goals in it, and things. It was Dorking three, Hartlepool four, get that in there. You were like a normal bloke. I couldn't believe it.

MW: Yeah, no, I am just a football fan that's got really lucky by working hard, and with people around me, to build my own football club from scratch. And I get to represent that. Honestly, I get hundreds of thousands of messages in different forms from people, and the common theme always is, thank God you're still around to fly the flag for us, whether it's a law change at the FA, whether it's somebody that says, you know what, we don't like the FA, whatever it looks like. They like the fact that they can listen to someone that tells it as it is, that's the common theme. But I'm always fair with it. I'm always fair. But of course, Jeff, some people, obviously you've probably heard of it, it's quite popular, I do a referee advisory service. It's totally free of charge. I don't charge them, and they don't always like it. They don't always like it, but seldom do people like constructive criticism or praise. But I'm always fair. I'm always fair.

JS: What's the worst thing you ever put in a referee's report?

MW: Well, they didn't run. We had one recently where at half time he wasn't sweating. If someone had said he'd just turned up, it was a replacement, you know, he was just running up and down like a small centre patch. If it was a grass pitch, it'd have worn it out. I'm really straight with them. Do you know what? I've actually built an affinity with the officials. It's actually gone full circle. People might think I'm joking. I'm on my third seminar now with referees' associations, where they've invited me in to talk to their county FAs' referees. I've done London, I've done Kent, we're doing Hampshire. So I was at Wembley Stadium, all London FA referees had the invite to come in and we talk about football. They say to me, why do managers act this way? They say, what do you think about the laws of the game? We all have a chat. So it's kind of gone full circle. They're kind of like the kind of approach of being quite full on with officials and laws actually is drawing us together a bit, because the one thing you realise after a while is that there is a common love for the game, and that's the bit that sometimes gets forgotten. And sorry to waffle on about this, but what I've learned is that, in the main, officials are human, in the main. There's a few that maybe aren't, right, but in the main they are. And there's a famous clip from Paul Durkin years ago, I think it's Durkin, I'm going to look stupid if it ain't, where he just got collared by an interviewer at the end of the game and they basically said, there was some controversy, what do you think, Paul? And he just said, I'm gutted because I think I've got something wrong. People never see that side of them. And I've seen that side of them, and how much they care, so it gets me viewing things differently now a little bit.

JS: Yeah. So do assistant referees and fourth officials, do they see that affinity as well when they're on your side of the pitch and things are maybe not going your way? Are you nice and kind to them?

MW: No, not really, not really. But the thing is, like, obviously the Laws of the Game allow for lots of arguments. That's that's half the battle. You know, if you think about how many times you know, we're just talking about controversy and. You know, what ifs the subjectivity they've bought into the game pauses for lots of arguments and disputes as well. So therefore, half the time is spent with fourth officials and assistants trying to win decisions or influence them based on subjectivity. If you want to get complex about it, what I love? I went to a game Fulham Chelsea the other week, and it was mad Jeff, because my friend plays for Fulham, and I was in the players bit, and a young man come on called Harrison Reed, right, and his wife was holding his child, he come on a sub, and he scored a 30-yard top corner, incredible. 

JS: Remember it. 

MW: And every single person went home talking about the goal. And it made me remember when football was like that. How many times now do you actually go home going, ‘Oh my God’, you're in the car with your family, and going, Oh, and you just keep talking about the same thing. And I thought that's much missed in football, because now you go home talking about VAR decisions, all these things. So no, look, as a manager on the touch line, I have to win decisions. I have to gain influence, and quite often that is a battle with the opposition dugout. That's just how football works. You see it at all levels. 

JS: See, I mean, I go back to the days when you didn't know who the referee was. His name might be printed in the programme, but that was it. Referees just were not household names as they are now. And I think the game was better for that. And I think referees as well then were under less pressure, because if they cocked up, well, nobody knew who was making that cock up and did that, so they carried on with their lives, not under the same sort of pressure as they are now. But I'll tell you what, I don't want you to get banned. So I'll say it. Two things. Especially at a lower league level or a National League level, sometimes you see the officials, and they might be well meaning, a complete asset. You see the officials and you think, well, the referee mustn't have turned up, and at half past two somebody's gone outside and found the first bloke walking past the ground and said, will you come and referee the game? And when he said, I know nothing about football, they said, even better, on you come, you're in. So that's a bugbear of mine. And the other bugbear is that assistants will not put their flags up. They know. They know when somebody's offside or has been fouled or whatever, but they look at the referee first of all and then they put the flag up, and they haven't got the bottle to do it themselves.

MW: You know what, it's another law change, another law change. There's so many of them like that, but you're dead right. The best referees are seen and not heard. And if you talk to some of those old officials, and actually I remember it's a small thing but a big thing, Gareth Southgate during the height of the last competition he was in, and I thought it was such a weird thing, because I wouldn't say Gareth was outspoken at all really, you know, he was an FA employee, but right in the middle of the last Euros he literally said, don't know why they don't get some of the old officials in the VAR room. And he made a really valid point, and I'll tell you why, because if you speak to a lot of the old officials, they don't agree with the modern game and the way it's done, and there's a divide in that. And I speak to lots of them, and a lot of those people were seen and not heard. They understood the way you had to manage games with emotion. And a lot of the things I do in seminars and that with the referees' associations and young referees, I talk about the fact that ultimately you're in a client service business. If being client facing, you don't enjoy that, it would literally be a little bit like signing up to be cabin crew, but you don't like people, and there is an element of that side of the game that's lost, and I think that's why you get the divide.

JS: Have you ever totted up how much in fines you'd paid for your misdemeanours, if you like, on the touchline or whatever, and how many games you've missed in terms of touchline bans?

MW: I've had some unbelievably long bans, I would, yeah. I'll be honest with you, some of them, one or two of them were definitely my fault. 

JS: Just one or two of them.

MW: Yeah, just one or two. The others, there was a famous one, I'd just returned from a suspension, and they were stadium bans. Because what the FA do is they obviously extrapolate the severity. So you go from touchline ban, where you sit in the stand, to then stadium ban, where you have to hide or wear a disguise.

JS: Or go in a laundry basket. 

MW: Yeah, laundry basket, right? So I've had lengthy ones, and after my last lengthy one, my first game back was at Oldham, and the ball came over and I kicked it away in anger, because my keeper had kicked it off the pitch three times. And it just so happened that on the fourth occasion, it landed flush on my right foot and I volleyed it, and I didn't actually know that the law is delaying the start of play, and I got a straight red. Yeah, I've had lots of bans. It's not helped us as a club, but genuinely, I'm not sure. My last ban was horrendous. It was for comments on a podcast that were absolutely said in jest, yes, and I stand by them now, in respect of the fact that I made a joke of a cliché. I wasn't being discriminatory. But yeah, six game ban for my last one. But yeah, it's not as easy not being in the dugout.

JS: Yeah, I'm not gonna ask you to repeat that one. We don't want you to get another six games. That Oldham one, by the way, brilliant, because afterwards you asked the FA to take into consideration the quality of the strike on your weaker foot.

MW: Me and Oldham get on really well as a club. Bizarre situation when their new owner came in, Frank, who's done wonders. It was his first ever game at Boundary Park, and it was on TV, and Frank, famously outside, was rallying the fans, and he literally said, where's Dorking? He didn't know. And then the two clubs bonded after that. And anyway, the fans and me were getting on really well, and they were fuming that I got sent off. They were booing the ref as I got a red card. But it was a good strike. Didn't deserve it, but that's how they work.

JS: But Marc, I saw you getting reported, I don’t know if you got banned for it, over your behaviour at an under-sevens game, yeah?

MW: I mean, if you're a participant in the game, it doesn't matter. So I could be in the crowd anywhere, and I could go, even if you're a supporter, but you are involved in the game, you're a participant, and then you're at the jurisdiction of the rules and stuff. But I'm not a wallflower, and I just have to speak my mind as constructively as I can.

JS: You know, when you had the stadium ban, I mean, I mentioned the laundry basket. Have you ever thought about being smuggled in in some way?

MW: I can't wait. I can't wait. All I would say is I cannot wait to not be involved in the game and then show the pictures that potentially may have happened around that. Yeah, there are some cracking pictures of various things that may or may not have happened with me suspended..

JS: What sort of things may or may not have happened?

MW: Well, I tell you what, there was an idea once about going in an apartment that overlooked the stadium we were playing in. So we might have sent somebody round there early in the morning, and one of my team said, look, what I'll do is I'll go round there. I'll get there at nine in the morning. I'll buzz, it was a set of flats apparently, and they were right flush behind the away terrace. I said, I'll press all the buttons, I'll see if someone picks up, and I'll offer them £200 if we can use their flat, right? So yeah, basically a young couple answered and basically said, yeah, that's fine. I've never told this story before. Not to me - to one of my team - they literally said, this is really strange, because we have no money, this is true, and we literally said a prayer last night that, because we're religious, somehow we would receive some money. And they got buzzed on the door at nine in the morning from somebody from Dorking saying, would you like £200? So they were sat there thinking, wow, our prayers are answered. So anyway, yeah, they said their bathroom and house and all that overlooked the ground. And I got the offer to watch the game from there, which I may or may not have taken. Brilliant. So yeah, yeah.

JS: What about dressing up as a mascot? I mean, you may or may not have done that?

MW: I may or may not have done that. Yeah, because to be honest, I'm going to say I've not done that potentially. But Dorking's mascot is a cockerel, so you'd be dressed as a massive cock. And I've always thought to myself, one easy one to do, because I think people are scared of mascots in general, because you can't really touch them or be normal with them, you're not quite sure who's behind the costume. And I've never done that potentially, but we'll see.

JS: Yeah, so that's good. I love the way you use the word potentially, so that's one you can store for a future occasion if you happen to get another ban. I mean, have you ever thought, I've really got to change? I must change.

MW: I definitely think, if I'm being honest with you, I've learned a lot along the way, and I've understood what you can and can't do. And I also think the FA do have lots of things in place for really, really good reasons. I actually think, if I'm honest, I've helped them, genuinely, I think I've helped them understand more about the game. But yeah, it's difficult, mate, because I think especially at youth level in football, there's a lot of misdemeanours, and I do think the top of the game is responsible for that, if I'm honest. But yeah, it's hard when you're a competitor. My thing is that if I'm playing a game of Connect Four, I'll take someone's arm off to win it. So that's hard to change, yeah.

JS: Bearing in mind all of this, it makes it all the more surprising really, Marc, that you were the first club to livestream team meetings before and in half time and at the end of the game. It was Weston-super-Mare, wasn't it? Yeah, have you any concerns about doing that?

MW: Yeah, I had loads actually. To be honest, I'd like to say I just styled it out, but I was quite apprehensive, because it's a very different changing room, our place. And I know a lot of people go, we showcase what we do through a Bunch of Amateurs etc, but a lot of the stuff we edit out would get us banned for life really, to be honest. But that's not Dorking per se, that is just football. Football changing rooms are a great place. I'm quite passionate about them, Jeff, because in a world, I actually think football is borderline the most inclusive sport around, if I think about where we've come from and the things I've seen in terms of being inclusive to different races, genders across the years. I think football is a fantastic vehicle for that, and it quite often gets a bad name when you see a lot of the people that campaign, and a lot of the time that's for monetary purposes. But the point being, changing rooms are a great place, and what goes on in there stays in there. And I think we had to be careful in there. So I had to be careful. The players were really cautious of not getting caught with their choppers out.

JS: But you know, it happens in things like the NFL. They're allowed there in their locker rooms, if you like. So you wonder why it can't happen here.

MW: You wonder where it was going to go in life if you fast forward 10 years, don't you? You're thinking, blimey, look at what's happening now. So yeah, the way content is in football now, the only thing missing borderline is the live stuff. So it's an interesting one. But tactically, I mean ironically, Weston-super-Mare, they only ever played a back four all season, and two variations of it, a diamond and whatever else. And they started a back three. So they tried to snooker us, so they'd been listening. Yeah, yeah, 100 per cent. So that was interesting. I think that it's hard to get away from the tactical advantage. But I think the idea is people love to just see it. I mean, I saw a stat the other week where people's attention span now, they're predicting that if people don't see what they want in 10, 15 seconds, they're not interested. So it's all going towards live.

JS: Do you think it'll ever happen that the cameras do get in the dressing rooms? I mean, I'm thinking now, little things we've had recently, the little interviews with managers at half time, the ref cam. I mean, not everything works, does it? I don't think the ref cam works at all. But do you think that one day we will see maybe cameras allowed live in the dressing rooms?

MW: I really do. I think if you just look at the popularity of the game and then look at the modern world and content and people wanting it right here, right now, I think that's exactly what's going to happen. And I think people should give people what they want to see. I would love to see more interactions. I really feel like the officials' lack of interaction is their biggest weakness, because I think they'd be a lot more popular if people really saw how things were for them. 

JS: I mean, I certainly think it's going to come. Maybe not even in my lifetime, but hopefully in the next five or 10 years. The big letdown for that live feed, for most people, was that you were winning at halftime. Because most people wanted you to be losing at half time to see what you were like in that situation. And instead, you were all praise and pats on the back.

MW: It was all too nice, I know. A lot of people are like, if it's three-nil down, the viewership is going to go off the scale, absolutely. But we were prepared to do that. At the time, I thought, whatever happens happens here, that's how it's gonna be. But I've never seen the players so nervous beyond belief, because obviously they could be the star of the show in terms of me targeting them. So the keeper, because I'm always having a go at goalies, I get told off for it all the time, but the keeper in particular was probably thinking, blimey, don't drop anything today. Yeah, good fun though.

JS: Yeah. We're going to move on to the story of Dorking in a moment. I've just got to ask you though about your relationship with fans, particularly opposing fans, because you do like to give them a bit, don't you?

MW: I love it though. In the main everyone loves me and the way we go about things. But for me, it's a bit like we come from playing on park fields where at one point there were no dugouts even. But then it progressed to one man and his dog. We come from where if someone gives it to you, you give it back, because it's literally there. So that's never changed though, that concept of if I'm going to listen to you the whole game and then we score a goal, then I'm going to make sure you go home knowing about it. And you know what? It's actually well received. A lot of fans actually at the end of the game want to shake your hand.

JS: Are you sure it's your hand?

MW: Yeah, I remember Hartlepool, I promise you, I'm not just saying it, Jeff, because you're a Hartlepool diehard. But at Hartlepool, me and the fan, it was literally WWF for 100 minutes, and at the end of the game, the worst one of all the fans, and by the way, if it had been a boxing match, you'd have thrown the towel in after bloody 20 minutes, right? He came up at the end and he was shouting, ‘oh, you wanker, come here and shake my hand’. Shook his hand and we hugged it out.

JS: That's what we'll do at the end of the show. All right.

MW: Bath City last year, honestly, I walked off and the abuse was getting in, this and that, and I looked at the guy, and honestly, he had two teeth. He had two teeth, the guy, and I said to him, blimey mate, we just drove past Stonehenge, right? And literally at the end of the game, I walked out to the car park, he was there with his mate, came over and said Marc, what a great day. What a great day. We had a hug, had another picture. So I think there's an element of people almost liking the sort of camaraderie, as long as it doesn't overstep the mark.

JS: They've got, look, there are certain characters they've got a sort of secret admiration for, haven't they? And I'm thinking Steve Evans is a classic example, where they'll give him dog's abuse during the course of a game, and he will give it back, by the way, and absolute shed loads as well. But secretly, I think the fans really admire him, and I think Steve loves it as well.

MW: Yeah, and it all falls into that category of people just want to be close to the game. That's why people like it. They like it if managers, opposing managers, have a bit of banter, get involved with them. But listen, sometimes you have to put your tail between your legs. You get beat, they have their day in the sun. And other times you think, I'm gonna let you remember that we beat you today.

JS: Yeah, which of course when you went to Hartlepool, you did, yeah. Was it two-nil?

MW: Wasn't it? I was only saying that because you got the four three in.

JS: And look, let's turn the clock back then to when it all began. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've got Division Five Crawley and District League, and you rented a pitch for 50 quid a go. And how things have changed, because then the players paid you to play, as opposed to the other way around.

MW: Fiver, five pounds to pay to play. The star centre forward didn't have a pot to piss in, so we paid it for him. The local pub, the Royal Oak, bought the kit. I used to take the nets over there, put the nets up, mark the pitch, that for several years. Yeah, that was my day. That was how it was. And sometimes on a Saturday morning I'd be picking up lads from other people's houses that they'd been at the night before the game, and then after the game we'd all go to the pub again. It was just a fun side.

JS: So was there always a vision then that this was going to become, even in those days, on your 50 quid pitch? I mean, once there was a game called off because there was a Shetland pony on it. But was that always the vision, that one day the club would be bigger? I mean, you're in the National League. Who says you couldn't get to the Football League? Was that in your mind, or was this just having a laugh?

MW: Dorking Wanderers is going to find a way to get to the Football League, with or without me. That is what will happen. But there was no vision ever, and it was just we started a social scene that was winning, sort of enjoying winning, bunch of friends, bunch of mates, and then we just got the becoming a culture, just enjoying that success, and it just kind of went from there honestly. There was never a plan. But we honestly went, and it sounds too good to be true, but we went from having no club, no fans, not one, to playing on TV at Wrexham, Notts County, Oldham, all these places, and it's quite phenomenal. A lot of water under the bridge, and a lot of people have helped us along the way, but never a plan, not even in the latter days. More of a plan now than ever before. We want to get to the Football League. We honestly believe, and to get there we believe would be one of the world's most recognised sporting successes, to go from where we have, step 17, to the Football League. So that is our aim, and we're more organised now. Never anywhere near organised back then.

JS: No, look, you're dead right. It would be. It has been an incredible story already. You get to the Football League, it would be a story that would go worldwide. There's no doubt about that. What about your first ground then, when you first moved on? Was it Box Hill?

MW: Yeah. So we were renting the council pitch for a fiver each, 50 quid a game. But as you go through the league, they keep coming up with more demands, which are actually one of the good things about the FA. So yeah, we had to find somewhere to play. We found an old field, and I met a guy down there and he said, look, Marc, it's got no power, no water, but if you want to have it, you can have it. So we said, yeah, fine. It was derelict. We had to dig trenches, build changing rooms, and we just done it with the players, the families, local sponsors, the timber company and everyone. Initially we had to put a rope around the pitch. That was it, just a rope around the pitch, and have a set of changing rooms that were near the pitch and a tea bar. And then it went from there. We moved into that site with nothing there at all, spent all summer trying to build it to play football. Our first crowd in our first game, there were 42 people, because it was a county league, right? 42 people. And we had to have a programme, and we've still got a copy of that programme. The year we left there, we played a title decider on the Saturday, a playoff game on the Tuesday, then the playoff final on the Saturday. Three games in a week, and 9,000 people came through there, and it was a field at the bottom of Box Hill.

JS: Yeah, we've got a picture actually. I think it's Box Hill in the background, isn't it? The thing that strikes me about that is that the trophy is bigger than most of the players.

MW: I know, I know, I know. And that particular one, I remember everyone went out and got drunk when we won that. And I remember two of the lads sat on the high street after the night out eating a kebab off it. It was that big.

JS: What was it for? Can you remember?

MW: Yeah, that was Division Two West Sussex. Won it by a mile, that one. Never forget that one actually, yeah.

JS: I mean, Box Hill, famous for cycling, isn't it? Very famous. You ever been into the lycra?

MW: Yeah, I actually do like bike riding. That's a bit of a thing. Not the sort that motorists dislike. I'm a mountain biker, that type of one. But yeah, Box Hill is, yeah. The reason we had to move from that stadium eventually was that at the bottom of Box Hill it's an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty. Building developments are not really allowed, so we had to move on, yeah.

JS: I mean, I mentioned the cycling, I was going to ask you about your sporting interest, because here's another shot that you brought in for us, and there's a whippet outside, by the way. Just outside the studio where we're filming in right now. This is a bit more than a whippet. But who's that?

MW: Shadow Storm, that is. I've always, I'm a working class guy, right? And if you grew up in my era, Wimbledon dog track, if you could afford to go out, you'd go to the greyhounds and that. Me and my friend, we got a couple of dogs when we were younger. And then it's just, the only thing I ever do outside of being really busy with work is the dogs. I've been really lucky, that one's going to be greyhound of the year this year, the fastest in the country, that one, and my one before that was. I've just got really lucky, and I love it. I really enjoy it.

JS: I have to tell you, when I was at Sky Sports, my first boss was a guy called Vic Wakeling, who's an absolutely great, great man, and he gave me the chance to do darts, snooker, pool, horse racing, bit of football. And he said, ‘working class sports, Jeff’. He said, ‘that's the thing for you’. And then they bought up the rights to greyhound racing. And he said to me, ‘you can do that, working class sport, greyhound racing’. I said, ‘Vic, I know nothing whatsoever about greyhound racing’. He said, ‘you do the horse racing, don't you?’ I said, ‘it's different’. He said, ‘leg in each corner, same thing, you're doing it’. And I went on to present the greyhound racing for three or four years, and it was fantastic, because it's a dead easy sport to understand. I think it's a great TV sport, because the dogs all come out of different traps, you don't need to know the names. It can be trap one, trap two, trap six, whatever, different colour jacket. That's easy to follow. I absolutely loved it.

MW: Great social sport. And it's a working man's sport. It's affordable for everybody. I was down at Hove the other week, loads of families down there. It's great. I love it. Got brought up with it really.

JS: So look, back to the football. You've moved on now. You're now at Meadowbank. You're getting big crowds there. But how much has this cost you? Has it come at a personal cost?

MW: Yeah, I've given everything I've got, Jeff. I've given everything I've got. I couldn't have given any more. There has been absolutely zero consideration for me in Dorking Wanderers' pursuit. I'll be honest with you, I've not been diligent. I've just given everything I can. It's just one of those. I don't regret it at all. It's what it's given me, but also the people of Dorking where we live, the people involved in the club, and now the wider masses. I mean, we get people at our ground on a regular basis. Honestly, Jeff, people think really? But we get people on a regular basis and they say, I've come from New Zealand to watch this game on Saturday. And I'll say, oh right, yeah. Do you know people locally? No, no. We've come from New Zealand because we love you and we love Dorking. And I get that every single game, Australia, New Zealand. It's become like a tourist spot for people that follow it and love it. So what we've achieved has brought joy to many, and that's why I think we've got to get to the Football League. But for me personally, yeah, obviously i’d be a lot richer without Wanderers.Or, rich, full stop, yeah.

JS: Do you ever think, I need to stop this? Why am I doing it?

MW: Nah, too late. I'm all in. I'm all in.

JS: As you talk about the achievements, you got to the National League. And one of the sides you played were Wrexham, obviously, home and away. Did Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney come?

MW: No, they weren't there. But what they did do was reach out, and they sent a Disney Channel crew for their Welcome to Wrexham show. They sent them to us before the game, so they recorded us training and preparing to play Wrexham. So I they kind of flipped the episode a little bit. So it was really good for the club, got us a lot of exposure in the US. It's just really, really bizarre. I mean, that is, for me, a fantastic story in its own right. A good example of good ownership, you know, the Wrexham one. And although it's not necessarily the rags to no riches of Dorking, it's certainly their own story. But yeah, no, it's phenomenal to be around people and places like that.

JS: Yeah, I know you like what they've done, but in some ways it makes your job harder, doesn't it? The more money that comes into the game at that level makes it tougher for Dorking, and for you.

MW: It does. But on the flip side, football needs the big acts, if you like. When Dorking go to clubs in our division, quite often we're their biggest crowd of the season, because people want to come and watch me shout at people and watch Dorking play. So it's kind of like, on the one hand it makes it harder, but on the other hand, there has to be, like, if it's a theatre, there's a good show on, then it creates more interest in what's going on. We've seen the introduction of different TV channels and exposure internationally, and if you look at Wrexham itself, I think there are two sides of the coin.

JS: And it's nice to have some good owners, isn't it, because as we both know, some ain't so clever.

MW: Football does seem to be a hub for undesirable owners. I think they're getting a hold of it slightly, slowly, but it's a serious matter. I mean, we actually did a fan ownership scheme. We've got best part of 800 fans that have got a foot in the club. And yeah, if you only look around the clubs really, I mean blimey, from Bury to Macclesfield, there's bigger examples than that, Southend, where clubs have been on death's door, Stockport were, and Chesterfield and Oldham were. So I think good ownership is hard to get, but there's a lot of regulation around that now, or regulatory stuff they're trying to do. Because the thing with a football club is, it sounds bizarre, but it's there before and after everybody involved, and that's the thing to never be forgotten.

JS: Yeah, look, you've hosted some big, big clubs in recent seasons, haven't you? We mentioned Wrexham. We mentioned Hartlepool as well, of course, but Notts County, Chesterfield, a lot of those big sides. But your biggest and best memory must have been that playoff game, was it? Phenomenal.

MW: Yeah, phenomenal. I'll never forget that. No. I mean, it's hard, because when people ask you about your best memory, you want to give two or three. But this is absolute, isn't it? Yeah. The storyline was the season before, having got funded by the government to continue playing during Covid and being top of the league in January, five points clear, game in hand or two, everyone fit. We were looking like odds on favourites to win the league big time, and it got called off, the division, and we were fuming. It cost us a lot of money. And the season after was the season in question. We were winning the league, and then our striker broke his collarbone, our best winger did his ACL, and we ended up getting pipped to the post by Maidstone. Went into the playoffs and yeah, sold out our ground, won the semi-final, Ebbsfleet. And the story was, bizarrely, that we were two one down. Their fans are literally like the old days, like when you see images from back in the day, stood around the pitch, coming over the barriers. They've all got flares, they're all whistling to the referee. And somebody threw a flare on the pitch, and the referee stopped the game to get the flare put out, which is the protocol. I'm talking seconds to go, put the flare out, game continued, whistling, whistling. Our fans are leaving, you know. And then Barry Fuller, effervescent 40 year old full back, chucked it in with his left foot, Alfie Rutherford header, and my centre mid slid in to put it in the net with five seconds to go to take it to extra time. And the grown men crying, it was unbelievable. The place erupted. And then we went on in extra time to win. We had injuries galore. We were hanging on for dear life. Our players out of position. It was just a bit like we got our just rewards that day. And there can be no greater game.

JS: Yeah, I've got a picture of you with the fans afterwards there, and I'm guessing it was a lively night, was it?

MW: Yeah, everybody done the pitch invasion, and one of my friends came up to me with a vodka and tonic, and he said, ‘can't believe that’. And it was almost like a burning fire, like the Mr Bean advert with the rug on fire, you know. I just walked off with the vodka, walked into the fan zone, and the next thing I remember was the morning really. That was it. Great day. 

JS: You know, if you did make the EFL, and it's certainly not impossible, is it, certainly not impossible, would you be able to carry on as manager? Because you haven't got any coaching badges. And as we all know, if you haven't got any coaching badges, you can't be any good. And if you have got coaching badges, you must be brilliant.

MW: Honestly, I fly the flag. I fly the flag for the thousands of people in this country that even if they wanted a badge, they can't get them. I'm not sure if you're aware, Jeff, but the FA not only charge an absolute small fortune, they've got waiting lists beyond waiting lists. You can't even get them. I know people that want to make their way in the game that seven, eight years back to back get a letter saying, sorry, you've not made the UEFA B this year. So no, listen, I actually think they will, when we get there, I genuinely believe they will change the rules. They might put it down as Marc's Law or something like they do, or maybe not, I'm not that popular. But I do think they're starting to resonate with the fact that if it's youth football and you need safeguarding mechanisms, we all understand that. But to say you need something to be somebody is a bit bizarre. Seems a bit out of touch.

JS: It's just a money making operation?

MW: Well, it is, yeah, it really is. And the reason we know that is because I don't see why they don't privatise it, and why don't they allow a really brilliant firm to start and allow accredited top level badges, so that all young aspiring managers and coaches in England can actually get on the ladder and learn more. Because they can't. They genuinely can't. I get letters all the time from people saying what you say is spot on. They understand what I'm saying. I don't want a badge off the FA. I don't think I need their badge that says, you know. I watch them out my window, because obviously we share with the Surrey FA, great organisation by the way, we share our ground with them. And I watch them out the window running around, throwing the ball like a netball. And I think, listen mate, I've forgotten more than you'll ever know about the game. I'm a connoisseur of it. I watch matches. I study it. I don't need a badge. I wouldn't want a badge off them. I wouldn't want one anyway, because I don't agree principally with the fact that they dictate.

JS: What if you got to the EFL and they said, you cannot manage this club unless you have a badge? Would you relent?

MW: I'd say, ‘fuck off’. And what we would do, we would say, I think we'll try and change it. I wouldn't relent. I've always said I would, if need be, put somebody from the tea bar, Sarah Jane, who works in the tea bar, I literally would put her through it. We'd get her the badge. We'd name her as the manager, Sarah Jane, and I would just be the assistant, and that's how we'd get round it, if that's at all possible. I'd like to change it though. What they need to do, Jeff, is they need to allow everybody in the game to be able to become qualified in a recognised way outside of the FA. Stop ring fencing it for monetary purposes, potentially.

JS: Okay, interesting. We're gonna run out of time soon, so I'll just ask you, coaches within the game that you admire. Who are your favourite coaches or managers, if you'd rather?

MW: I think coaches are becoming a bit samey now. I think if you look at the modern game now, people don't want managers, they want coaches, don't they? So there are a lot of clubs and teams that if they wore a different kit and you couldn't see the faces, you wouldn't actually know who's playing. So my thing is, I feel like it's hard. I admire the groundbreakers, Guardiola, the ones that were groundbreakers, that brought something new into the game. I don't necessarily admire the ones that then kind of adopt it necessarily. I think we're waiting on the next groundbreakers. What will be next? Everything evolves. How do you evolve it now from a game that's so technical? For me and the people I speak to, what I love and who I miss are the Cloughs, the Fergusons, the Allardyces, the leaders in the game. Even the more recent ones, Alan Pardew and people in the game that really know the game, and they get more out of everybody. What they do now, they employ coaches and they let the director of football have all the chat about the hundreds of thousands of pounds, contracts and deals, and there's not much man management. And the irony is that the two most recently successful managers, Guardiola and Klopp, actually do have that old leadership about them. And I think without that, you're doomed. So I like the old school ones. I'd love to have seen Rashford under Ferguson. How long would that show have gone on for? You know, they're the ones I look up to.

JS: Even the Guardiolas and the Klopps, they couldn't have fixed a burger van half an hour before kickoff, could they?

MW: No, exactly, yeah.

JS: Which I think is something you did once, yeah. Look, as the most unfiltered manager in the game, that's what we said, I just want to get your opinion on a few quick things before we finish. I suspect I know the answers to one or two, but VAR, what's your view on VAR? I know it doesn't exist in the National League or in the EFL, but are you for it or against it?

MW: I'm impartial. I think anything that improves the game, great. So I keep life simple. Law changes should be less. They should be significant, and they should be less. So when they worked out that if goalies don't pick up the ball from a back pass, it changed the game. Brilliant. Goal line technology, brilliant. That is definitely great. VAR for offsides, honestly, I'd like to see a variance personally, they will tell you. And by that what I mean is, nobody wants to see brilliant goals celebrated and then somebody's toenail, you know, we saw one recently, means that a whole team goal and celebrations are wiped out. I genuinely think the rule used to be with offsides that they would go with the benefit of the striker. They would say, well, yeah. But if you give, let's say, a six inch variance on offsides to take away those horrible ones, then technically it's not offside. But then my counter argument was, but you've got about 100 laws that you've got variance on, so don't worry about that one. But I think VAR for progressing the game, great. What they've done with it is try to take it to an obscene level. And they've made themselves look, in my opinion, silly, really silly. And also the amount of what they're doing because they've got VAR, I know you said it'd be a quick one, sorry.

JS: It's all right.

MW: But they then change a million laws in the game. The only decision behind it is for the Premier League, that then all the referees down in the parks and the National League can't interpret, so it's difficult.

JS: Yeah, I mean it's when you're in the Premier League, because of VAR, the assistants do not put their flag up for an offside immediately. And people further down the ladder are doing the same thing. Haven't got VAR, put your flag up. Ref, put your flag up, assistant, you know. Thomas Tuchel, what's your view on him?

MW: Well, personally, I'd like English people to be in charge of the national team. I just think with that comes the passion that goes with it. I'm not saying somebody won't be passionate about it. I think, to be fair, if you look at him and what he's done, he's put the warning gun out a little bit with some of the players. I think I stay reserved, Jeff, because I've always said the same thing. If me or you managed England in the qualification tournaments, we'd all get through to the competition. For me, it's all about them competition managers when it comes to winning things. So it'll be interesting to see whether he's got the same strength of decision making when he's got to tell certain players I might not be playing in the height of a competition, or take certain players off. But I think early signs are he's not been afraid to make a few changes. And I think that's what's key with those national managers managing these multimillionaires.

JS: Do you think the multimillionaires can win it? The England multimillionaires, can they win the World Cup?

MW: Yeah, definitely can win it. I do think that England will win a major competition soon, regardless to a degree of who's in charge.

JS: We saw your hair very early in the show, so what do you think of Alice bands, ponytails, that sort of thing?

MW: Well, yeah, not for me, not for me. The biggest bugbear is the short sleeves and gloves. Ah, you know, short sleeves and gloves.

JS: Gloves in September.

MW: Yeah, unbelievable. We played against a team the other year and the right back for them had motorbike gloves on, a big strap. I said to the ref, he could knock somebody out in a minute. No, not for me. I like footballers to be footballers, do you know what I mean? That's what I like to see.

JS: Yeah, directors of football, would you ever have one? Well, you must be. You are the director of football as well, aren't you?

MW: I think, yeah, I am basically. I can see why clubs have them, but there is just a lot of crossover. I think it's a bit like, if you can make it work, great. But when I talk to managers, like you probably know people in the professional game, half the battle is directors of football protecting themselves. You end up with the manager getting the brunt of it all. I always think if directors of football were to work, there should almost be, if the manager gets the push, so should they. But yeah, they can work. But I think in the main people don't like them.

JS: Yeah, it is always the manager who carries the can, isn't it, and not the director of football, even if he's gone out and bought all the players.

MW: It really is. And the thing as well is what I hate is that the directors of football, the owners of clubs, they very seldom lay out the expectations that they've got for the club. And then the fans get discontent because they're not quite, they think they should be doing better maybe than what they're entitled to, and then the manager gets the push. I see it all the time. I was at Fulham the other day. My granddad used to take me to Fulham. I used to stand on the terrace at Fulham. I was there once when Kevin Keegan played for Newcastle. That's how young I was. And I was at Fulham, they beat Chelsea two-one, and I remember thinking, I don't think Fulham will ever, as sad as it sounds, do better than where they are right now. But no one will ever say that, if that makes sense. So Marco Silva, if they ever lost, they'd want him out. But in actual fact, the guy's probably doing the best job anyone can ever do. We saw it at Brentford with Frank, Keith Andrews now, I think. Football clubs often, West Ham were a good example with Moyesy was it. Won in Europe.

JS: Yeah.

MW: It's mad, football, because sometimes there's too much money and not enough sense, and there can only ever be one winner. And if you're competing against Man United, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool, the list goes on, Arsenal, where do you expect to be? Would it be nice sometimes if an owner said, we're so happy with David Moyes, because we won a European trophy, we finished this position in the Premier League, and with our budget compared to others, actually David Moyes is doing a great job. You never see that in football.

JS: And he did do a great job. I've got two more very quick ones for you. Bookings for players who take off their shirts while celebrating a goal?

MW: Yeah, just pathetic, ridiculous. All of that is, sometimes you think, you'd like to think in 20 years it won't be them and someone goes, you know, once upon a time if you took your shirt off, you got booked, and they'd go, really? I think it all came from that kind of inciting thing. Surely they can strike a distinction between you've scored a last minute equaliser and you want all the kids in the crowd to go home celebrating. When we were kids we'd run around the street with a shirt around your head. That was an effigy of yes, that's it, that's the moment. So yeah, that's the FA being kind of the party poopers. They should change that one and strike a distinction between troublemaking and actually having your moment.

JS: Yeah, football is meant to be for pleasure and enjoyment, and that's what you take your shirt off to celebrate a goal because you're enjoying it and all the fans are loving it as well. And I know we asked you to watch your language at the start of this, so I'll just remind you that here's the last one. MK Dons?

MW: Not for me, not for me. I think obviously the hatred, if you like, my sort of love hate relationship with the FA, because there are good people in the FA, stems from, do people realise, do people understand and realise that the FA allows, it'd be like your club now, if you're a Palace fan, or Southampton, whoever you might be, it'd be like somebody saying, we've bought your football club and we're moving it, and we're going to move it nowhere near where your community is.

JS: And Marc, look, I would have 100 more questions, but we've run out of time, really really appreciate you coming in, mate. Really enjoyed it.

MW: Thanks. It's good to talk to normal football people. We're making a comeback, Jeff.

JS: Well, you can hear from a lot more real football people and a lot more real sports people on this podcast. Just subscribe so you make sure you don't miss an episode.

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