2012 Grand National

Scaifey
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Postby Scaifey » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:31 pm

jagie - people die in the london marathon ..... lets ban it. People die in Tough Man ....... lets ban it. People die whilst driving F1 cars.....lets ban it.
Slow and steady wins the race!

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Postby jagie » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:33 pm

Big difference is ... they choose to compete.

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Postby drogerson » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:36 pm

Jagie how do you feel about the meat you eat?
Or perhaps the leather on your sofa or trainers?

End of the day they are bred and raised for a single purpose. Since the invention of the car horses now rarely have a use in modern society, so as a species they could easily slip into extinction.

Also look at the horse yesterday or the day before who's rider unseated early on and it still ran around and jumped of it's own accord.

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Postby budgie27 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:37 pm

jagie it'a moral conundrum for me as a vegetarian but my thinking on it is that these horses love what they do and are by far and away treated better than any animals that are brought to the table for people to enjoy - for me that is a day to day offensiveness but these big races get everybody sympathetic but it's what these beautiful creatures do for our benefit - millions of animals are slaughtered in horrible environments everyday but these horse are out in a field doing what they enjoy. It's a high risk sport unfortunately but how do you minimise the risk but keep the spectacle - that's the issue for me. Horses die in their boxes or doing light exercise - they are fragile creatures carrying huge weight and stress on thin legs. Nobody I know in racing wants these deaths and feel these losses deeply as these horses are not just pieces of meat but real friends.
Last edited by budgie27 on Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby jagie » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:39 pm

Yep, totally agree ... life is cheap and we're all complicit. Enough said.

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Postby budgie27 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:00 pm

Well over 400,000 tons of horse was killed for human consumption in 2009 (from wiki) thats equivalent to about 800,000 horses in one year, 812 horses have died in the course of five years of racing in the UK. Puts it into some perspective. In 2009 8.3 billion land animals were killed purely for consumption in the US. 3 million cattle, 13 million pigs, 19 million sheep and lambs, 70 million fish and 800 million birds are slaughtered for human consumption in the UK alone. Just a point that although unfortunate 162 horses a year dying is only one drop in a huge ocean. Around 110,000 innocent civilians killed in Iraq over 6 years. The point being that horse racing seems to be an easy target where there are other more weighty issues that people choose to ignore as that makes them feel uncomfortable. Put into context, sad though it is, the death of two horses is not in the overall context of how we view the horse or animals or even humans in terms of how we value them.

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Postby Clearo611 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:09 pm

Budgie - great reply.
Assuming everyone on here bets on horses?? It is after all an online gambling site. It would strike me as hypocritical to subsequently bite the hand we all try to make feed us.
Sad - completely.
Should it be changed. No.
I see from the majority of your posts that you follow football mainly Jagie. Does that mean after the sad news of the Livorno player dying from a cardiac arrest and the near miss we had with Fabrice Muamba that you'll be clamouring for the game to be banned there too?

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Postby coxy123 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:43 pm

What stat is that welsh?

Which Two horses in the scottish?

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Postby jagie » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:50 pm

Clearo - I am not "clamouring" to ban anything. My initial post questioned only whether anyone found this "uncomfortable". I'm probably putting myself up for the noose here - I know very little about horse racing - I've had a wager in this and previous Nationals and will probably do so again next year and, as you deduce from my few posts, I bet mainly on football. In this respect I find Budgie's replies the most educating.

To compare the deaths of two race horses to those of people dying in marathons or F1 or cardiac arrests in football is blowing everything out of context. It was not my original intention but I seem to have drawn the sting out of a few of the forum members here.

This does not include Budgie whose balanced replies I have the most respect for.

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Postby budgie27 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:55 pm

Interesting that Daryl Jacob dedicated his win to a mate who lost his life racing horses (of course the jockeys have a choice but again some context in that jockeys also risk their lives) from the as ever excellent Guardian team:
Daryl Jacob dedicated an emotional first victory in the world's most famous jumps race to the memory of his friend Kieran Kelly, after getting 33-1 chance Neptune Collonges home here in the last stride to win the John Smith's Grand National.

The Irishman Jacob credited Kelly, killed in a fall at Kilbeggan racecourse in 2003, as his inspiration to move to Britain in an attempt to make the grade as a leading jumps rider. "This is for my best friend Kieran," he said. "This is so good for him. I have always said that some day I would ride a National winner.

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Postby budgie27 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:06 pm

jagie - we all love horse racing on this forum so we will always be biased. Racing as a whole has a habit of having cloth ears as to what the wider pub;ic thinks about the sport we love, You only have to listen to the likes of Matt Chapman saying that course attendances are up to see this in manifest form. THe National is the one viewpoint people like yourself and millions of others have into racing and to believe that what happens in the National is just a one off race but racing is fine otherwise misses the whole point that this is the view many have of horse racing. What happens in the National (unfortunately in my view) gives the general public a perspective on a great sport that is negative. You can easily argue that that perspective is correct as you can equally argue the other way. I see that the drop fence at Bechers is a focus and surely it won't be hard to level this landing off completely (it has been done at the third last at Chelts with no loss) plus I hear reducing the numbers - well reduce it to 30 it will still be a benefit to the bookies and a good spectacle. Those of us who love racing don't need to take a view from the ostrich level - the sport has to take into consideration wider views and not just say oh look the numbers are up because at the end of the day public opinion (though perhaps as discussed earlier is skewed wrongly) will turn against the sport and that will be massively detrimental to possibly the greatest sport there is. Racing needs to attract the biggest possible audience and no doubt by next years National the deaths of this year will be forgotten but the BBC is no longer involved in the race so the audience will diminish and bad press should try to be minimised when this race and others will be hard pushed.

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Postby deswalker » Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:11 pm

Really excellent points budgie. I would echo everything in there.

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