Round 2 - Last 16

Micko70
Stallion
User avatar
Betting Blog Tips
Posts: 7859
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Newcastle

Postby Micko70 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:52 pm

After qualification, Iceland had 9 friendlies and only won 3 of them, i know friendlies don't really add up to much but they only beat Finland, Greece & Lichtenstein, the 6 defeats came against Poland, Slovakia, UAE, United States, Denmark & Norway.

They did beat Holland home and away in qualification and kept 2 clean sheets.

They play in Group I, along with Croatia, Ukraine, Turkey, Finland & Kosovo

nors
Legend
User avatar
Betting Blog Tips
Posts: 14965
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: Coventry

Postby nors » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:36 am

Its more fundamental than a change of manager, we have had a wide cross section of managers without success.

Graham Taylor is Sam Allarydyce
SvenGoran Ericsson is Claudio Ranieri
Steve Mclaren is Gareth Southgate

The players need to be coached better and players at Youth Level need to be drilled in the art of controlling and retaining the ball, and be given a way of playing at the highest level.

Sturridge and Sterling were trying to do things that they do in the Premier League, it does not work at International Level. First and foremost you need to not give the ball away, you have to treat it as a precious commodity, no team can score when they don't have the ball.

Last night England played as if they were taking on Stockport and it seemed they had not been prepared as well as they should have been, the first aim should have been not to get beat,(See Italy) and to stay in the game, but we again thought we could rollover Iceland, starting Kane, Sterling and Sturridge was a mistake. Those 3 are not going to support the midfield.

PhilGSolent
Group 1 Class
Tips
Posts: 320
Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 11:00 pm

Postby PhilGSolent » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:58 am

Micko

On the 5th June 2016 Wales lost 3-0 to Sweden in a pre-tournament friendly.
Sweden were poor and Wales are still going strong.

On 29th May 2016 Germany lost 3-1 to Slovakia. They then meet in the 2nd round and Germany win 3-0 with ease and look to now know their best team.

Poland played 2 Friendlies at the beginning of June and failed to win either game. They lost 2-1 to Netherlands and drew 0-0 with Lithuania.

As we know Portugal lost 1-0 to England in early June.

Belgium got an 89th minute equalizer when almost losing at home to Finland.

Italy won their 2 games v Finland and Scotland.

As you say Iceland lost another friendly 3-2 to Norway at the beginning of June.

France as hosts have only been playing friendlies.

It was only 15 months ago that Portugal lost 2-0 to Cape Verde .

Friendlies are experimental games without pressure and have little bearing to tournament form.
Even qualifying against lowly nations is irrelevant.
Iceland's qualifying group set them against Czech Republic, Turkey and Netherlands as well as Latvia and Kazakhstan.
If England had Iceland's fixtures there we would have had true test and be worthy of a finals place. Would we have had a 100% record, absolutely not. Would we have qualified maybe, probably but still needing a result in our final match I would guess.

Shrews
Triple Crown Winner
Tips
Posts: 2062
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:00 am

Postby Shrews » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:51 am

The players need to be coached better and players at Youth Level need to be drilled in the art of controlling and retaining the ball, and be given a way of playing at the highest level.
I don't think there's any problem with the way we coach our youth players, it's a world away from when I was a kid, playing with full size goals when I was ten! Testament to this are our successes at the Under 17 European Championships in 2010 and 2014.

It's what happens to our young talent after this which appears to be the problem.

2014 side that beat The Netherlands

Freddie Woodman;
Jonjoe Kenny,
Joseph Gomez,
Taylor Moore,
Tafari Moore;
Ryan Ledson (c),
Lewis Cook;
Isaiah Brown,
Joshua Onomah,
Patrick Roberts;
Dominic Solanke

2010 side that beat Spain

Jack Butland
Bruno Pilatos
Luke Garbutt
Nathaniel Chalobah.
Andre Wisdom
Conor Coady
William Keane
Joshua McEachran
Ross Barkley
Benik Afobe
Connor Wickham
Samuel Johnstone
Ben Gibson
Tom Thorpe
George Thorne
Luke Williams.
Robert Hall
Saido Berahino

From what I can see, only Butland and Barkley have progressed to the current England set up.

The Premier League has to be at fault for much of this with the young talent like above rarely seeing the first team or being loaned out to the lower divisions where the coaching is not going to be as good. Basically it looks like they stagnate and never fulfill the talent they once showed.

Here's the 2007 squad that reached the final (lost 1-0 to Spain)

Jason Steele
Seth Ofori-Twumasi
Joe Mattock
Henri Lansbury
Krystian Pearce
Jordan Spence
Danny Welbeck
Danny Rose
Rhys Murphy
Victor Moses
Tristan Plummer
Tom Taiwo
Alex Smithies
Michael Woods
Dan Gosling
Nathan Porritt
Jonathan Franks
Gavin Hoyte

These players should be about to hit their peaks over the next 3 years but other than Welbeck and Rose what's happened to all the others? It's like we get them to an excellent level and then........well what?

nors
Legend
User avatar
Betting Blog Tips
Posts: 14965
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: Coventry

Postby nors » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:15 pm

In many cases Shrews i believe and there is evidence of this in Ice Hockey, the bigger faster maturing young players get selected and those slower to mature get left behind and drift away from football. It was mentioned that Griezman was always felt to be too small/lightweight.

Many smaller players are often more skillful because they need to be because they lack some speed. In other countries they tend to persevere with these skillful players and bring them on, but we drop them. So our youngsters are stronger and do well in youth comps but as the players reach maturity this strength is not such a factor but the more skilled and maybe more intelligent have gone and we get beat.

The Premiership allows this strength and speed to flourish to the detriment of quality play and tactical nous. But at International level its shortcomings are shown up.

From your lists you can see that this approach has not worked.

Would Silva/Messi/Goetze have made it in England in teams selected by Sam Allarydyce/Tony Pulis?

PhilGSolent
Group 1 Class
Tips
Posts: 320
Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 11:00 pm

Postby PhilGSolent » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:01 pm

The crux of the problem is in one word LOANS.

I dont think the loan system helps develop these players properly.

I picked one name from the 2007 list who I dont know....Jordan Spence who is now 26. From 2007 to 2014 he was West Ham's player and played 7 times for them. He also played 83 games for 7 different clubs on loans. Different systems for different coaches wanting to help their own teams foremost.
He also has 50 games for England from U16 to U21.

I dont know if our loan systems differs from other countries, but it doesnt seem to help players make the right progression. I believe Chelsea alone have 100 players whose loans run out on 1st July. That is crazy and cant be right.
One of them John Swift has been on lone at my club Brentford, he is now 21 and has caps at all ages from England U16 to U21. He has a big choice to make this summer and it will be crucial for his career to get this right.
Chelsea have offered him terms to extend and several other P/L and as many Championship clubs are keen to sign him.

I am sure most of Shrews players were in similar positions at some time.

geordieracer
At Stud
User avatar
Betting Blog Tips
Posts: 2720
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:00 am

Postby geordieracer » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:06 pm

we do not have a single player in our starting 11 last night that would play for Italy, France, Spain, Belgium, Germany.

we have no-one in the squad anywhere near "world class".

until our youngsters go and learn a bit by playing in Europe - just as people like Platt, Lineker, Gascoigne, Waddle etc did, we will have the same outcomes.

Do we want Dier, Ali and Rashford to become like Milner Henderson and Rooney? or would we rather have an Iniesta, Xavi and Pelle?

Shrews
Triple Crown Winner
Tips
Posts: 2062
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:00 am

Postby Shrews » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:47 pm

until our youngsters go and learn a bit by playing in Europe
I think this is a good point. As is the point about 'loans'. It can't be right for talent to be neglected and if I had the talent to play for England at youth level and win a major trophy then I'd be seriously miffed if I had to drop down the divisions to actually get match experience.

Some sort of loan links with clubs abroad would surely be more beneficial rather than playing in the lower leagues.

Shrews
Triple Crown Winner
Tips
Posts: 2062
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:00 am

Postby Shrews » Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:08 pm

Would Silva/Messi/Goetze have made it in England in teams selected by Sam Allarydyce/Tony Pulis?
I think those two managers certainly have the ability to 'spot a player' but whether that player reaches their true potential playing for that manager is another matter. Allardyce/Pulis don't ever seem to have had the luxury of being in a position where they are not under some sort of pressure where all players cannot afford to play at anything less than 100%. They need to play a certain way, in a certain role.

Ranieri at Leicester was really under no pressure (and never looked like he was). They were expected to be in a relegation battle from the off and although it would've been disappointing for them to go down it wouldn't of been the shockwave of the likes of Villa and Newcastle. Therefore the likes of Mahrez, Kante and Vardy were allowed to play without fear and from the off it worked, and because it worked it blossomed into something special.

Young Silva/Messi/Goetze types would flourish in that de-pressurised scenario but in an Allardyce/Pulis side, chances are that they'd have to play in a certain way just to survive and therefore because they could be seen as luxury players they probably wouldn't even be considered for buying.

Some way down the line, Allardyce in particular, has shown that he does start to address that given time and patience by fans. At Bolton, an ageing Djorkaeff was bought and the likes of JJ Okocha developed which showed that flair players were looked for, but only when the pressure of survival was off.

meoldmate
Legend
User avatar
Betting Blog Tips
Posts: 20592
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Fife

Postby meoldmate » Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:37 pm

What I have seen of players from England, who play in the premiership are well aided by players from around the world.
If we did not have players from Spain, South America, France and other parts of the world, we may be looking at a premier league, that would be just above the premier league in Scotland.

My father would be turning over in his grave, after watching what we had to bear last night.

The first part of learning to play football is to trap a ball, he would be telling them to get a bucket, "A bucket", would be the reply from Harry Kane and co, "why a bucket", my fathers reply "that's the only way you be able to stop a ball, as you cannot trap one".

We will have to learn out players are just not good enough, personally I would select players from the lower leagues, as these players are mainly of this country and they would play with there heart on their sleeves just like the Icelandic's.

Once they put there club colours on, they become hero's one again, just because they have another player from abroad making them look good.
Last edited by meoldmate on Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

willieboy
Classic Winner
Tips
Posts: 889
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:00 pm

Postby willieboy » Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:37 pm

Lets get this right.....I`ve said it before.
Absolutely massively overpaid....where`s the incentive to learn/give everything/have pride etc.
NOWHERE...that`s where.
Any other profession eg. builder, plumber, electrician...would be sacked on the spot if suddenly they became hopeless at their job...not for footballers...they can make as many mistakes as they like....and still be in a job and have their wheelbarrow ready for their wages.
It`s time to pay ON RESULTS only...that would concentrate their minds.
If you can`t trap the ball...pass to team player...shoot on target...make an easy save....get someone who can!!
Surely it`s not rocket science...

jammuss
Group 3 Class
Tips
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:00 pm
Location: Everywhere

Postby jammuss » Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:45 pm

I reckon it's 100% the player's at fault that we are on our way home,personally i liked roy hodgson, before that disgusting performance against iceland we had lost 2 games (spain & holland)out the last 25 played, winning 18 of them, that aint a bad record when you look at it. Since october last year apart from euro2016 iceland have beat Finland,Greece & Liechtenstein,and drew with Portugal.theyve lost 7 other games, not 1 of them losses is against a decent team. I think we should get glen hoddle in again, the players will love playing for him and as long as he leaves Eileen at home :) , And yes England was the only team that screwed me in the last 16 competition, i was the only person left, gutted.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users