Horses getting killed in grand national your views ( poll )

[turfline]

Nothing personal chimaira but i do not see any-thing that qualifies you to make a judgement on horse racing looking at your in-put since you joined on Feb 1st 2009, because you dont seem to have given any summary's or tips on horse racing if you had made a valid point i would respond, but like many who jump on the band-wagon they fail to look at the facts, first of all Aintree done a superb job from the view of looking after the horses, and the racegoer, and the TV showed no un-toward scenes.

You see many people who are given a platform make their view through blinkered eyes, and as Ted Walsh said to Matt Chappers on the ATR sunday phone-in...the Grand National is an easy Target for all the anti-brigade and do-gooders....and that is what you have to put up with.

As for my previous post i doubt that you have visted many race meetings as i visit about fifty meetings a year, and the connection to my previous post is that the media can make a profit from the Grand National....writing about the poor behaviour of coach load of intoxicated so called race-goers does not sell papers, and does not intrest the media, but it should because for the real race-goer it makes a difference having to put up with these low quality people who visit the race track once or twice a year, and are as much use as an ash-tray on a motor-bike.
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[Warren Hill]

I have to agree with you there Turf....

Over the last four years the police have had to be called three times to the 2000 Guineas meeting to break up fights including one running battle which ended in a stabbing.

Also on the July course barely a Friday night goes by without an inncident or two at the concert nights.

You only have to witness the state of people getting off coaches or drinking in the carparks two hours before the first race to understand the problems that lie ahaed.

Yes horse racing is attracting much younger and bigger crowds but unfortunatly at the big meetings its now attracting what some call "The Yob Culture"....who are only there for the drinking ...the women and the odd punch up...
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[bugalu]

My own personal opinion is to many runners reduse the feild to 30 and leave the jumps alone.

[johnwilly]

Found some interesting stastistics
Modern steeplechase races have an average of just over 4 fatalities of every 1000 runners.
In the national they are higher with about 10 deaths from 519 runners betwwen 2000 and 2012
Ther have been about 70 deaths during or as a result of running in the national since the first race in 1839 of which 48 were during the race.
Some years there were about 4 deaths others years there were none and there were more years when there were no deaths than there were actual fatalities
I thought you might find this more interesting and to give a more balanced perspective

So after finding this would it be better to make the race tougher not easier as when it was a tough race the fatalities were less over a period of time
as during the last 12 years when the National has been made easier the fatalies % has increased

[The rabbit]

Those stats mean that the rate of fatalities in the National are FIVE times higher than for a usual steeplechase. This shows why so many people want the race changed or banned. Fatalities are much worse in this race than others. It is too tough for the horses.....horses enjoy running and jumping but there has to be a limit regarding what they can be expected to do and the National exceeds that limit in my opinion.

Re the more deaths after the changes, it might be misleading as the ground years ago may have been much softer than it has been since when the changes were made. Winters may have become drier in last 12 years....it seems like it to me anyway

[davidg3907]

I feel the ridiculous pace to the first fence has a MAJOR bearing on things. It often seems as least as fast , if not faster than many 2 mile chases.

The problem may not manifest itself immediately , but with 4 1/2 miles to cover horses will use proportionally far more energy before the first fence than in other races. This inevitably leads to tired horses at an earlier point in the race , something that will contribute to falls in the latter stages after being a direct cause of falls at the first few obstacles.

Asking/telling jockeys to ' go easy ' to the second fence would fall on deaf ears , even if they were not told to ignore it by their respective trainers.

Limiting the field to around 30 would not prevent those that wanted to lead from setting off at the same old gallop. The big handicaps over 3 or 3 1/4 miles with less than 20 runners do not suffer from this disease , but would it be the Grand National if limited to 16-20 runners ?

Some have suggested cutting the distance to the first fence so they arrive at it before reaching top speed. As I see it this may put an even greater premium on getting there first. Extending the distance to the first fence giving the riders a better chance to take up what position they have been instructed to take might help. Having reduced the initial pace , to keep it slower the first five fences could be closer together - even reducing the gaps by 20 yards would enable a run of an extra 80 yards to the first fence.

Finally a far more radical , but possibly not viable / practical option.

A false rail could be erected in the centre of the track , effectively keeping the field in two groups ( simply requiring a draw for near or far side to keep numbers even ). Splitting into two groups VOLUNTARILY in races like the Stewards Cup , Hunt Cup , Wokingham and maybe others is standard so not as ludicrous as it may appear. This is similar to athletics where the first bend or further of some races is run in lanes to avoid jostling. Currently the horses are relatively spaced out by about the third fence so at this point it should be safe to combine the groups.

The great Kauto Star recently injured himself during schooling - and it took a long time for us to get to hear about it. How many ' lesser lights ' suffer injuries in this way and we are not informed ? We shall never know.

It is only a couple of years ago that horses were electrocuted in the paddock at Newbury - what should arguably be the safest place on any racecourse.

The last two points ( unless anyone wishes to imply negligence on Paul Nicholls' part ) show that accidents WILL happen even under conditions as safe as can reasonably be achieved.

I can't remember where I used to see it , but there was a list of engagements / withdrawals. The number of withdrawals simply stating ' deceased ' was considerably more than I ever expected.

[blackcaviar]

If any stats are going to chucked around then you have to do it based on the fatalities/number of runners and expressed as a %.

No point in comparing with anything unless its done this way.

e.g Its like me saying 6 horses died in the national this year but only 1 died in a 6 runner novice chase at Kempton.

6/40 = 15%
1/6 = 16.67%

Now which is worse ?

If 2 die in a 40 runner race but 1 in a 20 runner national then is that better ? only in your perception so reducing the runners wont make a difference. 1 fatality should cause the same uproar the 2 fatalities this year have caused.

If it had been a 200/1 and 100/1 shot we woudlnt be having this discussion. We would say horses of such calibre shouldnt be running and its the owners and trainers fault for entering, not the size of field or difficulty of the fences.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments. It is also sometimes colloquially used to doubt statistics used to prove an opponent's point.

[InsideMan]

decreasing the number of runners would have no effect at all believe me

I think the guy who rang up ATR the other day on Sunday has the right idea, the horse doesn't think that there is a steep downward incline and this is where most of the accidents happen at Bechers, well all of them do

if the ground was level it would be a big help and well the race is obviously being run at a faster pace than it should be run at, it's just sensible stuff really if you are going at 50mph in a 30mph zone and you hit a corner at that speed than you will obviously come up short and it's just the same in racing

[WaywardWinners]

Afternoon everyone.

Nobody likes to see anyone get hurt, or Horses getting killed

A big race like the Grand National has the media coverage all around the world.

The press are always going to highlight horses being killed.

I think it about time people started to give these jockeys the credit they deserve

Life Happens.

WaywardWinners

[The rabbit]

Blackcaviar - if you want to compare stats as a % then it easy to do using the figures provided by johnwilly -

Modern steeplechase races have an average of just over 4 fatalities of every 1000 runners = 0.40 %

The National has about 10 deaths from 519 runners between 2000 and 2012 = 1.93 %

Therefore the rate of fatalities in the National are FIVE times higher than for a usual steeplechase.

Some people on here and the other thread have stated that reducing the number of runners to about 30 would be a disaster for the race and not work etc but that is incorrect. There were only 27 runners in 1996 and 32 runners in 1999 and both races were considered to be very good ones and were enjoyed by millions of the Public who still watched and bet on the race. Common sense states that numbers should be reduced and I will be very surprised if they are not done so in 2013.

[JackTheRipper]

Balls I voted against it by accident but I am very much for horseracing. It's a fantastic sport and gives great lives to a lot of animals and human beings as well. There is however the fact that as humans racing these animals for our entertainment & pleasure means that we must act responsibly especially when the safety of the animals is involved. I really don't accept the current death ratio in the national and I have to say sod tradition & the history of the race it needs to be made safer. The race has to be a race not a last horse standing competition and I would like to see a much much higher completion rate. The current form of the race is not acceptable anymore and whether or not people feel part of the race will be ruined the slating of national hunt racing from welfare groups but most importantly the public will continue. I can't see this as being a good thing at all and IMO the whole farce of the changing of the whip rules came from the national. It was just a way of appeasing welfare groups without taking anything away from the money spinner that is the Grand National.
I don't mind the race and think it should continue but there certainly are safety concerns.

[Imaginarium]

GREAT ENDEAVOUR DIED OFF FIELD